[devouringone3]

Quote:

Thanks for the notes devouringone3.  I don't wish for this to be taken the wrong way but I'm a little concerned about the amount of flowery language associated with the hp1k here.  At the end of the day it's a vintage headphone that does what it does very well - as with any headphone there are trade-offs to getting a certain kind of sound.  I don't think that what Purrin's brought up here is in any way a slight to hp1k owners/fans but rather an objective way of looking at the headphone, it's shortcomings, and a potential and thankfully reversible way to address those shortcomings.
 
In my view there's nothing wrong with what JG offers to hp1k owners at all, it's a very welcome service.  I myself can't justify the cost unfortunately given that the headphones themselves cost as much as said service and in reality retailed for far below the cost of what the service costs today.  The alternative here seems to be a great opportunity without the high cost.

 
Sorry for the flowery vocabulary, I was entering a subject a bit more abstract and I know I couldn't have dealt with it with more precise and exact terminology.
 
Okay at this point I believe we all agreed midrange shoutyness was a shortcoming .
 
I don't think there is anything wrong about the upgrade either, it is an exquisite service for an exceptional headphone, and the price you are asked to pay is another expression of the law of the diminishing returns.
 
I wouldn't go as far as to call this mod an alternative to the "i" upgrade. The latter is meant to refine the sound and the mod were talking about here is about dampening it... with some pleasing results and increased neutrality. Again I ask, is shoutyness a consequence of a more forward sound? Because according to pcf and to the guy who tried his HP1i, the upgrade by Joe brought the sound forward, which was an improvement to pcf, but not totally one for the guy of the table next to him at last year's Bay Area meet.
 
The lining with Dynamat (Creatology Foam) of Purrin could be a supplement to even the HP1000i as well, lol.
 
 
To Purrin.
 
Yes I indeed thought Beagle was more experienced with the HP1000 than you thought he was, even if he doesn't own a pair a the moment. Now that you've explained me you guys had already encountered, read one another, I surely understand better your reaction to what he said.
 
If you discover a magical trick that really helps the HP1k then I urge you to post it on Head-Fi. Myself I wouldn't do it expecting anything in return, or do it only if I have something to "give back" to the community, I would do it out of generosity.
 
I sit on the fence between collector and power-user like you which might be an extreme case of. This is also why I tried to defend Beagle in the first place. My HP2 is now my best headphone but I cycle through all of my headphones so they do remain in their box most of the time. Still I listen to my HP2 and enjoy it very much, in fact, it blasts me away every time. I have not perceived any displeasing midrange shoutyness, but I do find them a bit fatiguing for a reason I can't pinpoint because I'm far less sharp at critical listening (and then logging onto Head-Fi and describing the experience) than mostly all of you guys here. Still I'm now a HP1k owner and I can finally delve into your territory . And I can't read waterfall plots well yet, but if you tell me the second graph of the modified HP1k is closer to the way a perfect headphone should perform then I'll take it. 
 
I'm talking about my own person here but I don't take as personal what is being exchanged here.
 
I think it's okay to improve even twenty year old untouched headphone. If you think less midrange shoutyness is an improvement then I will recommend your mod and try it for myself. I think what I did here was an attempt to control the balance of the conflict a bit...
 
I agree with what rhythmdevils just said, except for the attachment part. Some might be attached to it but me I think it's just that it is insulting to be suggested or implied ignorant: suggested by Purrin, who is the first one to make up such a point about "midrange shoutyness", among all those of which I've read reviews and impressions about the HP1k sound, and implied "overactively ignorant", by LFF.

 

[purrin]

<spiel on>
 
I think it's important for people to know where I am coming from: speakers (and building them.) It would seem that a lot of people on HF haven't been exposed to good sounding speakers (nope - not those at Magnolia, Best Buy, etc.) I am not implying that people are stupid or deaf. It's simply a matter of exposure and expectations. Headphones are very irregular in their frequency response and tend to have all sorts of resonances, some caused by the driver, others caused by the enclosure. (Speakers have their own issues, but that is besides the point.) My take is you don't hear any issues, than that's great for you, something less to worry about. The measurements are out there. See the patterns and determine for yourself what works for you and what doesn't.
 
If there is any particular agenda I have, it's to get headphone manufacturers to make stuff that sounds less messed up - and at more reasonable prices. As an aside, the IEMs guys are lucky. They get good stuff like the ES5, JH13, and UERMs. Although these three IEMs have their unique sound signature, they sound much much closer to neutral (and to each other) than say LCD3, HD800, and HE5 (or whatever.) These IEMs don't have all sorts of these resonances and FR irregularities that most headphones tend to have. Part of the reasons why IEMs are able to pull this off is because of the technologies and methods they employ, but I see no reason for not encouraging manufacturers to push the limits of existing headphone technologies harder (by calling them on crap, even on the stuff that maybe 75% of HF'ers don't care about nor are able to hear - heck most Porsche drivers never exceed 70% of what their cars can do, but premium cost products should still have premium performance.)
 
That being said, the HP1000 is still one of the most neutral headphones out there.
 
<spiel off>
 
As for the midrange shoutyness - this does not pertain to highest mids which I consider more around 4-6kHz. I am referring to the region around 2k. And also, I am referring to a resonance, that is ringing, which for headphones (and the HP1000 in particular), does not necessarily show up on FR measurements, nor is readily identifiable (or not tolerable) to many people.
 
As far as pcf's HP1000i's, I did not necessarily feel that his pair were more forward sounding than regular HP1000s. For me it was a matter of the regular HP1000s having very thick bass. Lots of 2nd order harmonic distortion. The damping (with goo or dynamat or whatever) helps to tame this thickness which IMO masks the harmonics and overtones of instruments and voices (which reside in the upper mids and treble.) Just another opinion or way of looking at things.
 
Finally, I'm not pointing a gun to anyone's head and forcing people to do this mod. Nor am I stating this is the "greatest mod evar", providing specially unique visualized measurements exaggerating it's greatness for purposes of charging $500 for it. I'm simply putting this out there "FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION."

 

[devouringone3]

O.k., fair enough .

 

[pcf]

Quote:

<spiel on>
 
 For me it was a matter of the regular HP1000s having very thick bass. Lots of 2nd order harmonic distortion. The damping (with goo or dynamat or whatever) helps to tame this thickness which IMO masks the harmonics and overtones of instruments and voices (which reside in the upper mids and treble.) Just another opinion or way of looking at things.  
 

 Interesting point. I always thought the overall sound of the stock HP1000 can be a bit "flat", wondering if the bass is the main offender.
 
 

 

[devouringone3]

Yes they are quite bassy actually. More so than my SR100-0.

 

[devouringone3]

Quote:

 With the test equipment you have wouldn't working with the Magnum make more sense?   I mean one bad day and one mis-hap with the soldering iron and you would destroy the HP1000 driver,  its so easy.  We are all human.   Just a gut feeling but I think the design of Grado (and Magnum) drivers with the solder pad and the tiny voice coil leads probably alters their performance a bit with each solder/desolder,   those coils just aren't designed to stand up to heat.

 
But he did not desolder anything?
 
It's true that we need to keep in mind that the HP1000 drivers are an endangered specie. Tiny voice coil leads, altering their performance, very interesting stuff you're saying! We should all avoid recabling the HP1000 for its preservation? testing my comprehension.

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Purrin,    
 
 With the test equipment you have wouldn't working with the Magnum make more sense?   I mean one bad day and one mis-hap with the soldering iron and you would destroy the HP1000 driver,  its so easy.  We are all human.   Just a gut feeling but I think the design of Grado (and Magnum) drivers with the solder pad and the tiny voice coil leads probably alters their performance a bit with each solder/desolder,   those coils just aren't designed to stand up to heat.
 
I guess what I am saying is IMHO you are taking a great risk with the HP1000's for modding/upgrading,  are the HP1000's that much better than the Magnums ?
 
Or are you looking at trying to DIY the service that Joe provided/s to some customers who have him refirbish/upgrade their HP1000's (I get that)?
 
Have you done similiar tests/experiements with the Magnums?    Just trying to understand why the choice to experiement with the nearly priceless nearly irreplaceable basically works of art that many of us only dream of owning,  when you have a (I think) great alternative with magnums.
 
Do understand that I think your measurements of headphones is absolutely cutting edge and fantastic work.  If you have measurements of the V4 Magnums and I missed them in my search could you share their location?

Purrin's mod on the HP1000 is reversible and I don't see any big risk in doing so. Joe is nearly 90 years old and won't be with us forever so finding an alternative way to improve the headphones is not a bad idea at all. What I would be most interested in is Purrin doing some test on some Joe Grado modded HP1000. That would be nice.
 

 

[devouringone3]

Yes, and the Creatology Foam sheet is a good start.

 

[devouringone3]

A lot has already been done in that field (experimenting with the Magnums, all sorts of work), there http://www.head-fi.org/t/576717/grado-modders-go-magnum
 
Here this thread is about a minor modification that had a meliorative effect on the sound of the HP1000.
 
You can try it on your Magnums has the driver's are just as easy to remove as those of the HP1000 exemplified in the first post .

 

[recstar24]

Just to add some observations...the set I sent in and am waiting for currently is my 5th set I've owned.

4 had the ultrawide cable, 1 standard, 1 was a hp3. All sounded slightly different. The standard cable one was the bassiest and darkest. The others were different in that some were more open sounding, some more closed in. I would agree that all exhibited some shout in the midrange, albeit nowhere near a John Grado.

My 5th set had a busted driver. I sent it in years ago for joe to replace with matched drivers. Not only did it return perfect but it was clearly the best set I had ever owned. Only difference I saw was a tarlike substance lining the inner part of the enclosure. $350 well spent.

My upgrade should be done and joe last week told me he would send it by the end of the week, so hopefully next week I'll get to add more impressions. Joe in both experiences was really nice to talk to.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSX1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
are the HP1000's that much better than the Magnums ?

yes

 

[dlrkdnjs]

Quote:

Well, it is reversible. And the HP1000 were so smartly designed that it's easy to remove the driver (six hex screws hold it in place.)
 

Thanks for the information about the hex screws. I didn't know it's so easy  to remove the driver till now.
I wanted to recable my hp1 before trying various mods. But  opening both cups I don't know which cable is + or -.
I see the red & green(right driver) and blue & white(left driver). Thanks for your help in advance.
 

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Just to add some observations...the set I sent in and am waiting for currently is my 5th set I've owned.
4 had the ultrawide cable, 1 standard, 1 was a hp3. All sounded slightly different. The standard cable one was the bassiest and darkest. The others were different in that some were more open sounding, some more closed in. I would agree that all exhibited some shout in the midrange, albeit nowhere near a John Grado.
My 5th set had a busted driver. I sent it in years ago for joe to replace with matched drivers. Not only did it return perfect but it was clearly the best set I had ever owned. Only difference I saw was a tarlike substance lining the inner part of the enclosure. $350 well spent.
My upgrade should be done and joe last week told me he would send it by the end of the week, so hopefully next week I'll get to add more impressions. Joe in both experiences was really nice to talk to.

I am waiting for my 4th pair of modded HP100 too.  Do let us know what you think about your pair when you get them. Joe was very excited about the new pads. He said the pads made his SR325 sound like HP1000! I can only imagine he meant black 325 with the HP1000 drivers.

 
 

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

Purrin,    
 
 With the test equipment you have wouldn't working with the Magnum make more sense?   
 
I guess what I am saying is IMHO you are taking a great risk with the HP1000's for modding/upgrading,  are the HP1000's that much better than the Magnums ?
 
Or are you looking at trying to DIY the service that Joe provided/s to some customers who have him refirbish/upgrade their HP1000's (I get that)?

 

1. Magnum drivers have different characteristics compared to the HP1000 driver. The Magnums are essentially mimicking the RS1 tone, but with greater refinement. The Magnums/RS1 are not neutral like the HP1000s. The slight midrange shout or 2k hump caused by the cups actually works well in conjunction the Magnums/RS1's peak at 5kHz and slighter elevated treble.
2. No risk because this mod does not require de-soldering. Not that it would have stopped me anyways.
3. No I do not plan to offer a service.

 
Quote:

Thanks for the information about the hex screws. I didn't know it's so easy  to remove the driver till now.
I wanted to recable my hp1 before trying various mods. But  opening both cups I don't know which cable is + or -.
I see the red & green(right driver) and blue & white(left driver). Thanks for your help in advance.
 

 
Use a multi-meter on the jack and trace the wires to the pads on the drivers. Should be easy to figure out which is + and -.
 
 

 

[Chefguru]

Quote:

I am waiting for my 4th pair of modded HP100 too.  Do let us know what you think about your pair when you get them. Joe was very excited about the new pads. He said the pads made his SR325 sound like HP1000! I can only imagine he meant black 325 with the HP1000 drivers.

 
 

Has joe indicated what these look like? I'm really excited about this.