[Review] WA7 & LCD-2F: DAC shoot-out & tube guide [UPDATED]
Jun 19, 2015 at 5:49 AM Post #76 of 161
this is very sensible advice from @Money4Me247 - It's always important to have specific insight into the headphones in question and how far you can reasonably expect to effect the sound through equipment/tube changes.
 
Via the LCD-2Fs the JANs felt a bit like a small EQ bass-boost & the Mullards recommended by @abvolt are most definitely a top choice for a warm tube still with great low-end presence - but I must add with these headphones/amp I never really found the WA7 lacking in bass even with the stock tubes so it never felt like there was a bass "deficit" to overcome, which is maybe more what Kyle is describing.
 
Kyle - I am sure you will get there in the end and find your sonic bliss - hopefully you can enjoy the journey (though I totally relate to your frustrations when there are such large sums of cash involved and you want things just right).  Now, since we've all bombarded you with all this great advice - If possible I would definitely recommend going to some stores to demo other equipment and some of the headphones Money4Me has recommended before the next big purchase/equipment swap.  
 
 
Jeb. 
 
Jul 4, 2015 at 12:11 PM Post #77 of 161
Once again, THANK YOU to @Jeb Listens for sharing his thoughts on the variety of tubes he's used on the system.  
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Jul 4, 2015 at 7:51 PM Post #78 of 161
yes indeed also very helpful.  .
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Jul 9, 2015 at 12:51 AM Post #80 of 161
this is very sensible advice from @Money4Me247 - It's always important to have specific insight into the headphones in question and how far you can reasonably expect to effect the sound through equipment/tube changes.

Via the LCD-2Fs the JANs felt a bit like a small EQ bass-boost & the Mullards recommended by @abvolt are most definitely a top choice for a warm tube still with great low-end presence - but I must add with these headphones/amp I never really found the WA7 lacking in bass even with the stock tubes so it never felt like there was a bass "deficit" to overcome, which is maybe more what Kyle is describing.

Kyle - I am sure you will get there in the end and find your sonic bliss - hopefully you can enjoy the journey (though I totally relate to your frustrations when there are such large sums of cash involved and you want things just right).  Now, since we've all bombarded you with all this great advice - If possible I would definitely recommend going to some stores to demo other equipment and some of the headphones Money4Me has recommended before the next big purchase/equipment swap.  


Jeb. 


So after spending about a month now with the WA7tp and my EL-8 opens, I've determined that the reviews must be right. The EL-8s don't really scale up with different equipment let alone tube rolls. I tried the Philips, JANS, and stock tubes, but nothing helped the bass response OR warmed up the harsh upoer mids/treble. The Philips brought on a little more clarity and soundstage width and eliminated the slight grain of the stock tubes, but at the expense of LESSENING the bass. Them and the JANS both sounded like they rolled off the EL-8's bass at 120hz or so. Zero fun. So I guess Audeze really designed these things for a more portable experience. They do not click with higher end amplification gear. They're already a very forward and in your face sounding can, and combining that with the lively WA7 makes for a rather fatiguing listen. The stock tubes actually sounded best with them after about an 1-2hrs of warming up while listening. But still, treble intensive rock and edm had to be played with the volume control at halfway or less unless I wanted my ears ringing from fatigue after a session. No bueno.

I'm keeping the WA7tp because I can tell this bad boy has potential but needs to be paired with the right cans for audio bliss. The clarity and detail retrieval is nuts I love it. So after a ton of review reading I think I'm going to sell the EL-8s and just grab some LCD-3s, some LCD-XCs, a Hi-Fi M8 and be done with this hobby for a while. That oughtta do the trick..I hope. I'd go LCD-X over the 3's as money4me247 suggested, but I'm reading that their bass response is monitor-like flat whereas the 3's is slightly elevated? Idk. I'll probably haul my WA7tp over to my local Audeze dealer and extensively test both before I throw down the plastic. Thanks for the advice though guys. It's hard being an audiophile basshead..I want it all!
 
Jul 9, 2015 at 2:03 AM Post #81 of 161
So after spending about a month now with the WA7tp and my EL-8 opens, I've determined that the reviews must be right. The EL-8s don't really scale up with different equipment let alone tube rolls. I tried the Philips, JANS, and stock tubes, but nothing helped the bass response OR warmed up the harsh upoer mids/treble. The Philips brought on a little more clarity and soundstage width and eliminated the slight grain of the stock tubes, but at the expense of LESSENING the bass. Them and the JANS both sounded like they rolled off the EL-8's bass at 120hz or so. Zero fun. So I guess Audeze really designed these things for a more portable experience. They do not click with higher end amplification gear. They're already a very forward and in your face sounding can, and combining that with the lively WA7 makes for a rather fatiguing listen. The stock tubes actually sounded best with them after about an 1-2hrs of warming up while listening. But still, treble intensive rock and edm had to be played with the volume control at halfway or less unless I wanted my ears ringing from fatigue after a session. No bueno.

I'm keeping the WA7tp because I can tell this bad boy has potential but needs to be paired with the right cans for audio bliss. The clarity and detail retrieval is nuts I love it. So after a ton of review reading I think I'm going to sell the EL-8s and just grab some LCD-3s, some LCD-XCs, a Hi-Fi M8 and be done with this hobby for a while. That oughtta do the trick..I hope. I'd go LCD-X over the 3's as money4me247 suggested, but I'm reading that their bass response is monitor-like flat whereas the 3's is slightly elevated? Idk. I'll probably haul my WA7tp over to my local Audeze dealer and extensively test both before I throw down the plastic. Thanks for the advice though guys. It's hard being an audiophile basshead..I want it all!

 
LCD-x are my fav. pairing.  
 
Jul 9, 2015 at 9:51 AM Post #82 of 161
Congrats Kyle - I'm sure the WA7 will prove its worth with some headphones you really love.   In the past i have also had headphones that I didn't really love and attempted to "fix" them with equipment changes -  in general it's a long, expensive and quite likely fruitless road!  Much better to start from a position of loving your headphones & enhance with a great Amp and DAC. 
 
Good luck with your search for your next pair - taking your WA7 to demo with other headphones is a great way to go and definitely what i'll be doing if I ever decide to upgrade from my LCD-2s -  like you it would mostly likely be a choice between the LCD-Xs and 3s so it would be great to hear your findings. 
 
Jeb.
 
Jul 9, 2015 at 11:26 AM Post #83 of 161
@kyle1010, the LCD-X actually has the best bass response & bass quality out of all the Audezes I've tried. ymmv, so I do highly recommend demoing their whole line-up with your new amp if possible.
 
the lcd-x + wa7 is also my favorite pairing for that amplifier.
 
one final thing, please be careful with the glasstops when transporting the wa7. they are not directly attached to the amp. also, do not transport the amp with the tubes in the sockets. i think it would be safer to take the whole thing apart & place into the foam when moving.
 
hope you find what you are looking for & please let us know what you decide! cheers :)
 
Jul 9, 2015 at 9:36 PM Post #84 of 161
@kyle1010
, the LCD-X actually has the best bass response & bass quality out of all the Audezes I've tried. ymmv, so I do highly recommend demoing their whole line-up with your new amp if possible.

the lcd-x + wa7 is also my favorite pairing for that amplifier.

one final thing, please be careful with the glasstops when transporting the wa7. they are not directly attached to the amp. also, do not transport the amp with the tubes in the sockets. i think it would be safer to take the whole thing apart & place into the foam when moving.

hope you find what you are looking for & please let us know what you decide! cheers :)


Gotcha. I'll definitely use the foam and boxes.
LCD-x are my fav. pairing.  


Yeah I keep hearing that. Have you tried any tube rolls with the LCD-Xs? Why exactly is it such a good pairing? @money4me247 mentioned the bass quality and quantity is top notch out of all the LCD series, but is it a smooth and musical sound as well? I'm looking for killer bass but also smoothness in the upper mids and highs. That's why I was thinking LCD-3s over the Xs. What are you guys' impressions of the LCD-X and WA7tp combo? With or without tube rolls? (Hopefully with since now I have 2 sets of upgrade tubes just hanging around in their little boxes)
 
Jul 9, 2015 at 11:21 PM Post #85 of 161
all Audeze's have very nice smooth, forgiving, 'musical' treble presentation in comparison to headphones like the HD800, HE-560, and K812.
 
The difference between the LCD-X and LCD-3 to my ears is that the LCD-3 has nicer mids & a more mid-centric sound while the LCD-X has slightly more bass quantity and better bass quality.
 
The other headphone that I think may suit your requirements is the PM-1/PM-2 for a smooth 'musical' treble presentation and a slight hint of warmth if you have the opportunity to demo them as well. Possibly also the TH900, but treble is a bit sharper on that one (more v-shaped sound sig).
 
Jul 28, 2015 at 2:52 AM Post #86 of 161
all Audeze's have very nice smooth, forgiving, 'musical' treble presentation in comparison to headphones like the HD800, HE-560, and K812.

The difference between the LCD-X and LCD-3 to my ears is that the LCD-3 has nicer mids & a more mid-centric sound while the LCD-X has slightly more bass quantity and better bass quality.

The other headphone that I think may suit your requirements is the PM-1/PM-2 for a smooth 'musical' treble presentation and a slight hint of warmth if you have the opportunity to demo them as well. Possibly also the TH900, but treble is a bit sharper on that one (more v-shaped sound sig).


As per your recommendation(and about 50-100 pages of head-fi reading), I grabbed a pair of like new LCD-Xs for $1300 today! I won't be able to test them out until next week when I pick them up from my friend's house in LA, but dude I can't WAIT. I have no idea how much better than the EL-8 opens they're gonna be, but I'm reading that the improvements won't be subtle. Also, I ordered some VALVO Philips ECC82 tubes this time for the WA7tp. So maybe those plus the LCD-Xs will give me all the bass I need for my edm. Mullards might have to wait another month or so. Those things are pricey and I think I'm gonna get some copper Double Helix Molecule cables first. (Mainly for looks but I'm reading that they do improve SQ a bit.)

Anyway, I hope the LCD-Xs respond better to tube rolls than those EL-8s. If so..this should be fun.
 
Aug 8, 2015 at 12:39 PM Post #87 of 161
Congrats Kyle - I'm sure the WA7 will prove its worth with some headphones you really love.   In the past i have also had headphones that I didn't really love and attempted to "fix" them with equipment changes -  in general it's a long, expensive and quite likely fruitless road!  Much better to start from a position of loving your headphones & enhance with a great Amp and DAC. 

Good luck with your search for your next pair - taking your WA7 to demo with other headphones is a great way to go and definitely what i'll be doing if I ever decide to upgrade from my LCD-2s -  like you it would mostly likely be a choice between the LCD-Xs and 3s so it would be great to hear your findings. 

Jeb.


Oh man. I've had the LCD-Xs for a week now and tube rolling is completely different than with the EL-8s. The Philips branded ECC82s now sound very bassy and extremely liquid and tubey. The Valvo branded Philips ECC82s were not NOS but tested well and sound very similar but with a touch of grain thrown in and lack of seperation/imaging. They sound like thick audio soup. Granted, all of this was tested using the stock amp tubes so results could very when I get the EH golds that I just ordered. I also ordered a set of NOS Mullards and can't wait to hear those things finally. So far with the stock 6C45s, the JANS sound the best. I do hear some slight distracting grain and siblance in the mid to upper treble, but that might be from the stock 6C45s. Other than that the JANS are wonderful. Just enough bass and warmth over the stock tubes to make things more enjoyable. With the LCDs I totally see now why people love the WA7tp and tube roll their wallets into anorexia. It's addicting! As SOON as my conscience allows me, I'm absolutely buying the Siemens and CBS Hytrons! I need some wide and holographic soundstaging in my life now!

Also, since I have a new addiction, I was wondering what adding a Chord 2Qute dac to the mix would do. It's definitely pricey, but fits my nightstand aesthetic needs and I've never read a less than stellar review of Chord's dacs. Apparently the new 2Qute dac is essentially the same as the one in the latest Chord Hugo. Anybody ever try the Hugo's dac with the WA7tp?
 
Aug 8, 2015 at 2:39 PM Post #88 of 161
Oh man. I've had the LCD-Xs for a week now and tube rolling is completely different than with the EL-8s. The Philips branded ECC82s now sound very bassy and extremely liquid and tubey. The Valvo branded Philips ECC82s were not NOS but tested well and sound very similar but with a touch of grain thrown in and lack of seperation/imaging. They sound like thick audio soup. Granted, all of this was tested using the stock amp tubes so results could very when I get the EH golds that I just ordered. I also ordered a set of NOS Mullards and can't wait to hear those things finally. So far with the stock 6C45s, the JANS sound the best. I do hear some slight distracting grain and siblance in the mid to upper treble, but that might be from the stock 6C45s. Other than that the JANS are wonderful. Just enough bass and warmth over the stock tubes to make things more enjoyable. With the LCDs I totally see now why people love the WA7tp and tube roll their wallets into anorexia. It's addicting! As SOON as my conscience allows me, I'm absolutely buying the Siemens and CBS Hytrons! I need some wide and holographic soundstaging in my life now!

Also, since I have a new addiction, I was wondering what adding a Chord 2Qute dac to the mix would do. It's definitely pricey, but fits my nightstand aesthetic needs and I've never read a less than stellar review of Chord's dacs. Apparently the new 2Qute dac is essentially the same as the one in the latest Chord Hugo. Anybody ever try the Hugo's dac with the WA7tp?


Kyle - thanks for the update & very happy to hear you are enjoying your new system now.  Makes me want the LCD-X!  
 
I'm sure you will love the Mullards - a very fine tube indeed.  As you know i'm a big fan of the JANs too.  To put the other tubes you mentioned in context: I find the CBS-Hytron 5814 to be like an upgraded version of the JANs.  Whereas the Siemens are like a wider version of the Mullards.  Obviously that won't mean anything until you hear the Mullards and you can decide if you'd like a little more separation or are happy with where things are - that will be mostly a matter of taste/headphone synergy since they are both great tubes in their own right.  
 
Grain.  I do find the EH 6C45s to be a slightly better separated & cleaner sounding tube so I wouldn't be surprised if you do find that they mop up some of that slight grain you are hearing in the music - I think there is a bit with the Sovteks.  The Mullards will probably help with this too since I find they have a very balanced yet smooth sound and the sound quality in general is really superb and an improvement over the JANs.  Of course a significant DAC upgrade will get you to the end of the line with the WA7!  
 
Regarding the 2Qute/Hugo, Head-Fi'er Shini44 recently posted some impressions about using the Hugo with the WA7/tp over on the WA7tp impressions thread .   One thing's for sure, if the 2Qute is an indication of your DAC budget, you will have a lot of very fine DACs to choose from so hopefully you can have some fun testing out some different options.   
 
I love your dedication to a night-stand aesthetic! 
 
 
Jeb.
 
Aug 9, 2015 at 12:21 AM Post #89 of 161
Oh man. I've had the LCD-Xs for a week now and tube rolling is completely different than with the EL-8s. The Philips branded ECC82s now sound very bassy and extremely liquid and tubey. The Valvo branded Philips ECC82s were not NOS but tested well and sound very similar but with a touch of grain thrown in and lack of seperation/imaging. They sound like thick audio soup. Granted, all of this was tested using the stock amp tubes so results could very when I get the EH golds that I just ordered. I also ordered a set of NOS Mullards and can't wait to hear those things finally. So far with the stock 6C45s, the JANS sound the best. I do hear some slight distracting grain and siblance in the mid to upper treble, but that might be from the stock 6C45s. Other than that the JANS are wonderful. Just enough bass and warmth over the stock tubes to make things more enjoyable. With the LCDs I totally see now why people love the WA7tp and tube roll their wallets into anorexia. It's addicting! As SOON as my conscience allows me, I'm absolutely buying the Siemens and CBS Hytrons! I need some wide and holographic soundstaging in my life now!

Also, since I have a new addiction, I was wondering what adding a Chord 2Qute dac to the mix would do. It's definitely pricey, but fits my nightstand aesthetic needs and I've never read a less than stellar review of Chord's dacs. Apparently the new 2Qute dac is essentially the same as the one in the latest Chord Hugo. Anybody ever try the Hugo's dac with the WA7tp?

@kyle1010, glad you found something you are happy with!! :)
 
for the chord, it is nice & will offer some technical improvements, but may be brighter relative to the stock dac. not sure if you are looking in going in that direction with your sound as I know you really like a bassier sound. may be other dac options that better fit your personal preferences out there.
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 6:29 PM Post #90 of 161
 
Kyle - thanks for the update & very happy to hear you are enjoying your new system now.  Makes me want the LCD-X!  
 
I'm sure you will love the Mullards - a very fine tube indeed.  As you know i'm a big fan of the JANs too.  To put the other tubes you mentioned in context: I find the CBS-Hytron 5814 to be like an upgraded version of the JANs.  Whereas the Siemens are like a wider version of the Mullards.  Obviously that won't mean anything until you hear the Mullards and you can decide if you'd like a little more separation or are happy with where things are - that will be mostly a matter of taste/headphone synergy since they are both great tubes in their own right.  
 
Grain.  I do find the EH 6C45s to be a slightly better separated & cleaner sounding tube so I wouldn't be surprised if you do find that they mop up some of that slight grain you are hearing in the music - I think there is a bit with the Sovteks.  The Mullards will probably help with this too since I find they have a very balanced yet smooth sound and the sound quality in general is really superb and an improvement over the JANs.  Of course a significant DAC upgrade will get you to the end of the line with the WA7!  
 
Regarding the 2Qute/Hugo, Head-Fi'er Shini44 recently posted some impressions about using the Hugo with the WA7/tp over on the WA7tp impressions thread .   One thing's for sure, if the 2Qute is an indication of your DAC budget, you will have a lot of very fine DACs to choose from so hopefully you can have some fun testing out some different options.   
 
I love your dedication to a night-stand aesthetic! 
 
 
Jeb.


Thought I'd post a quick update to my tube journey with the WA7tp and LCD-Xs. Thanks to Jeb's words I now have a growing nightstand drawer full of tubes lol. I have the JANs, two versions of the Philips ECC82s (Valvo, and just Philips from Holland), Mullards, EH gold pins, and just received the Siemens. Here's a quick rundown of my noob guy impressions..keeping in mind I listen to 90% electronic music and the other 10% is a mix of live rock and female vocal recordings..all of which through Spotify 320kb/s from an iPhone 6 USB to the WA7. Also, these impressions are with the stock 6C45s because I'm not a fan of the EH golds and I'll explain why.
 
 
JANs: In love with them. Glorious bass and tubey sound which is simply intoxicating with the right recordings. Songs that don't have intense treble are a dream come true through the JANs and LCD-Xs. It's the kind of tube sound I was looking for. Soundstage is middle ground between wide and intimate. Detail is amazing until you get to the upper mids and higher where things get a little confused but not necessarily offensive. Tracks with intense treble immediately take you out of the liquid trance the JANs put you in by sounding a TINY bit harsh and grainy. Perhaps a smoother copper upgrade cable will fix this, but as long as I listen to laid back house music and future bass stuff like Odesza, Daktyl, and Carl Cox, I'm in a tubey Audeze death grip with the JANs in the WA7tp.
 
Valvo Phillips: These were the first tubes I tried with the LCD-Xs. They basically had the liquid tubey and extra bassy parts of the JANs, but seemed to take the sound a few more feet "under water" if you will. Like Jeb mentioned NOTHING sounds harsh with these bad boys..I tried. Bassnectar's track "Breathless" is my treble tester song and I've only heard one piece of equipment besides the WA7tp with Valvo's that can tame it and that was the HiFi M8. Although the Valvo's soundstage through the LCD-Xs is very intimate and in your head, not one piercing note came through. It's like the Valvo's know exactly when and where to cut the intense treble off. I liked these tubes for their bass heaviness, but the limited soundstage and super tubey sound made them a little dull to my ears.
 
Phillips of Holland: Essentially the same sound as the Valvos, but with a little more detail.
 
Mullards: I've only logged about 2hrs with these. Smoothest treble presentation of all the tubes in my new collection. Jeb's review of them is dead-on accurate. They never do anything wrong. They have a very "by the book" sound that is super clean and neutral. For the $160 I spent on them, and the cool cigar wrappers they came in, I was a little underwhelmed by them with MY type of music. Maybe Jeb's right and I need to spend a little more time with them. Thus far they didn't give me that "I wanna stop listening because it's 1am but I CAN'T." feeling like the JANs did with certain tracks. However, on the songs where the JANs snapped me out of tube heaven, the Mullards cruised through the intensive parts with ease. I could see where if I were a fan of classic rock, acoustic guitar, jazz, or classical music, the Mullards would be the bees knees. But with the atmospheric, bass heavy, trancey, thumping electronic stuff I love, the Mullards just cruise through it textbook style without taking me into a 3D bubble of warm/detailed/bassy sound that I can hardly escape from. Again, the plus side is the super smooth treble, solid tight bass, and really doing nothing wrong. They definitely aren't risk takers. I'm gonna give them another go to get more hours on them and see what happens though.
 
Siemens: I just got these a few days ago and WHOA. I think they may have inched past the JANs as my favorite tube thus far. The soundstage is a little wider than the JANs, but with so much more detail in every area. They don't have as much of a juicy and liquid tubey sound as the JANs, but they make up for it by having FAR smoother treble and giving you that "Holy crap I hear EVERYTHING and it's all around me!" type of feeling. These and the JANs are the two tube sets that lock me into listening sessions longer into the night than I want to. Bass on these Siemens isn't quite to JAN level but really really close. I love these things. I was just listening to a 1hr Anjunabeets mix on Soundcloud prior to writing this and it was perfection. The kind of sound that is warm, bassy without over-doing it, relaxed, wide, and just swings you along. Perfect. I've only heard the treble get a tad hot on a few high energy tracks with these. All I did was turn down the volume a hair and problem solved. I'm ordering a Moon Audio Black Dragon cable for the LCD-Xs to smooth out the last bit of treble presence and I'm pretty sure I'll be at end-game level after that.
 
EH gold pins: To be fair, I can immediately notice better seperation and layering of sounds within my electronic music tracks with these. However, they seem to sacrifice all the tubey goodness of the stock Sovteks. And with tubes like the Mullards and Siemens in the power supply, the detail and seperation are right back in the mix but with tube sound glory. I'd say if you want more soul and tube smoothness, don't upgrade to the EH gold pins. They're very clean and clear sounding, but basically turn your tube amp into a more solid state sounding one. Also, it's MUCH harder to tell the difference between the various 12AU7 tubes with the EH golds thrown in. They seem to just clean up all the tubey sounds and leave you with a slightly cleaner and much less bassy/fun presentation. I'm not into it, but certain kinds of music would probably sound awesome with these.
 
Anyway, that's where I'm at so far. I'll be swapping around between the Siemens, JANs, and Mullards until my CBS Hytrons arrive next week. If those are what Jeb describes as an upgraded JAN, I might be in love. The Siemens could loose the crown idk. What I do know is this tube rolling is super fun!
 
Oh, and as far as the Chord 2Qute..I'm reading that what money4me247 said is accurate. It would totally fit my nightstand aesthetic and provide some gains in detail, but brighten up the sound a little which is not my cup of tea. Thanks for saving me $1800 on that one! Honestly, I may have just been excited from the SQ gains with these 12AU7 tubes and getting greedy. I'll probably be at end-game status with the Black Dragon cable and the Siemens or Hytrons. The law of diminishing returns and/or junking up my nightstand would hit hard with anything more. Well, cheers to all you guys and your advice! I'm getting REALLY close to exactly what I want. The WA7tp and LCD-X combo is absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see if an upgrade cable can really finish off the last bit of audio nirvana for me.
 

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