[Groundhog]

Just seen Jason's video about the Sennheiser HD490 Pro Plus:



It seems that Sennheiser silently replaced their HD600 line for their PRO customers.

Looks great, better build and might have larger soundstage.

What do you think?

 

[equalspeace]

Saw Jason's review earlier. These look awesome. Apparently they sound good too. Looking forward to hearing them

 

[Patrick415]

I'm looking forward to checking them out. Sounds promising!

 

[pk4425]

Very cool design. Almost looks like an HD 600 had a one-nighter with a Momentum 4 and didn't use a condom.

 

[JonM78]

This is just the Sennheiser 490 Pro. Apple already has the Pro Plus trademarked. Nobody is allowed to use it. JK

 

[XERO1]

From the above video's measurements, when using the Producing (velour) pads, it looks like they will have bass that is essentially flat to 55Hz (nice!). But when compared with FR of the HD 600, they will have 3-4dB less output in the 2-3kHz pinna-gain region (not so nice).

They definitely look interesting!

 

[arielext]

The difference between the HD 490 PRO and HD 490 PRO Plus headphones are the included accessories:
- HD 490 PRO includes: 1.8 m cable, mixing ear cushions, producing ear cushions
- HD 490 PRO Plus comes with: 1.8m cable, 3m cable, premium case, mixing ear cushions, producing ear cushions, extra headband cushion

Source: https://www.klundertmusic.nl/sennheiser-hd-490-pro (get some bot to translate it if you don't understand Dutch)

+ additional long cable
+ additional case
+ headband cushion

 

[listenerwww]

Would love some commentary from @Sennheiser or @ericpalonen about these.

For example, in the measurements on the box (first picture), are these taken on the GRAS system Sennheiser uses, or the B&K 5128? Are they calibrated using the Diffuse Field HRTF of the rig?

Secondly, is this using an HD 58X driver(or a modification thereof)? Driver seems to look near-identical to other drivers in the 5-series lineup.

Thirdly, are the replacement parts going to be made available for individual purchase?

And lastly, are these going to be available for testing at CanJam NYC?

 

[listenerwww]

Posting this here for those who are interested. Below, traces of CustomCans' measurements of the HD 600 (Blue) and HD 490 Pro (Red) done on the MiniDSP EARS.
Normalized at a 3-octave range centered at 500Hz, and the 490 Pro has the "Producer" pads on it.

No idea why CustomCans didn't directly overlay them. Keep in mind that the EARS absolutely does not model the acoustic impedance of an ear, so these results should be taken with heaping bags of salt.

I bring this up because, in addition to the use of the driver that looks reminiscent of the 5-series drivers, these differences remind me of another one of Sennheiser's recent products in how it compares to HD 600—the 660 S2.

I don't know about you all, but I have seen people all over the place saying the HD 660S2 is a downgrade from HD 600 and 650 (and I largely agree with this sentiment).
Additionally, the 660S2's sonic profile is suspiciously close to a headphone already available in Sennheiser's lineup—the HD 58x from Drop—while of course being rather similar to its predecessor HD 660S.

Sennheiser has been extremely, vocally intent on "not retreading the sound of the beloved 600/650", even though people like me won't shut up about wanting it
Instead they opt to retread the more muted, less coherent tuning profile found in the 58x, 660S/660S2, and now potentially the 490 Pro... but is anyone asking for more of this?

My questions are twofold:

1) Why is Sennheiser more than happy to retread the sonic territory of the 58x and 660S/2 while absolutely refusing to revisit the 600 and 650 in earnest?

2) In what way is something with a big hole in the upper midrange better for producing, mixing, or mastering music?

 

[rggz]

The talk about the driver alone is always 'I sleep.' I believe this person meant the back of the 'driver' is similar-ish, as in this picture, it is just impossible to discern the diaphragm material (or the specific polymer blend), voice-coil material, acoustic impedance of the baffle, and, of course, the entire structure of the chassis and earpads playing a role on one's head.

It reminds me of the NDH 30 and HD 560S talk using the same 'driver,' or the IE200/IE600/IE900 7mm transducer being the 'same' when the surrounding acoustic structure and Helmholtz resonators aren't remotely similar. What valuable information can we really gather from it without testing it in our heads?

FWIW @Jermo K already provided a rather interesting explanation about the KDH 580 vs. SYS and the whole context (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sennheiser-hd-660s2-thread.966685/page-119#post-17429121)

As for the 660S2 being a 'flop,' like anything in audio, it's rather subjective. In the 660S2's thread here on Head-fi, or the countless reddit r/headphones posts about the 660S2 (example) you'll find way more positive views than in discord echo-chamber servers, so perhaps one's perception of a product being a win or flop can be skewed depending on the bubble you're in.

 

[someyoungguy]

Anyone know what the impedance and sensitivity are?

 

[listenerwww]

The talk about the driver alone is always 'I sleep.' I believe this person meant the back of the 'driver' is similar-ish, as in this picture, it is just impossible to discern the diaphragm material (or the specific polymer blend), voice-coil material, acoustic impedance of the baffle, and, of course, the entire structure of the chassis and earpads playing a role on one's head.

I actually agree on this, it's not solely about driver or driver-type, but about implementation. The implementations across units that use the SYS platform seem very similar if the frequency response is anything to go by (I of course am willing to be wrong about this when I actually hear a HD 490 Pro unit, I've heard the others and my judgment stands).

Thanks for the link to Jermo's explanation of the driver differences and why the SYS platform is more commonly used.

To quote Jermo, "The advantages compared to our previous platforms are a stronger magnet, a vented magnetic yoke which reduces air turbulence during incursion into the magnet, a very consistent damping concept and lastly an undampened magnet hole." He speaks praise but doesn't speak about limitations, just saying it would "take over the brilliance of the KDH580" with seemingly no downsides. Doesn't sound like a reasonable way to frame things; in any meaningful change to a design, there will always be trade-offs.

The fact that they've dropped this SYS driver in the 660S into an almost identical sonic circumstance as the KDH 580 driver in the 650 (same baffle, pads, chassis, nearly the same rear grille which is proven to have minimal impact anyway) and have the tonal differences we can see across basically any measurement rig, we can conclude rather safely IMO that the differences are up to the characteristics of the driver: material, dimensions, voice coil, rear damping scheme etc. To many, HD 660S was a categorical downgrade from the HD 650. Clearly Sennheiser felt people's myriad complaints about less bass and treble were loud enough to go back to the drawing board, which is why 660S2 exists.

I'm not going to say that the SYS driver is categorically worse, as that was never my intention with the post in the first place. I also never called anything a "flop." Of course any headphone will find its adherents, but to reiterate clearly:

I simply don't see the point on repeatedly retreading territory that has seemingly been done enough (and at better prices) when what people want from Sennheiser seems to be rather clear to me—the excellent midrange and smooth treble they're known for with the 6 series, but with more bass extension.

I understand better than most that this isn't an easy thing to achieve, and indeed with the post from Jermo you've shared, it seems like the KDH580 makes this basically impossible. But that doesn't mean the compromise they've chosen to live with is one I agree was worth making.

It seems with their current direction that they've settled on a compromise that has painted them into a corner of a midrange tonality that is incongruent with what made thousands of people fall in love with Sennheiser's 600 series. Furthermore, they see fit to make it harder for people to actually try or buy the HD 600 and 650 in stores, instead either pushing their newest 660S variant or generating pro SKUs like 490 Pro and putting them in the spot on a store shelf that would otherwise be occupied by an HD 600 or 650.

In the 660S2's thread here on Head-fi, or the countless reddit r/headphones posts about the 660S2 (example) you'll find way more positive views than in discord echo-chamber servers, so perhaps one's perception of a product being a win or flop can be skewed depending on the bubble you're in.

Simply exchanging one echo chamber for another, and frankly I take issue with painting them as if they are similarly discerning groups of people.

While I frequent all of these spaces, the "Discord bubble" is generally the one where listeners are more experienced (having actually heard a lot of the gear they're talking about) than a place like reddit. Additionally, they tend to care enough to better understand the benefits and limitations of audio measurements, whereas Head-Fi is largely antipathetic to measurements as a tool or topic of discussion.

These two things greatly influence ones ability to make an educated judgment, I'm sure you would agree. For that reason, I am fully confident in saying the bubble you complain about is on average the more discerning pool of consumers than either reddit or Head-Fi, which is why it's where I tend to spend the bulk of my time.

 

[listenerwww]

Anyone know what the impedance and sensitivity are?

We likely won't know until Sennheiser formally announces the product. Neither of the European stores that (likely erroneously) have the 490 Pro available for sale have these specifications listed, and as @rggz rightly points out, the voice coil impedance is likely one of the things they change between iterations on this driver type, so it's also not safe to assume anything in particular about the driver.

 

[rggz]

Simply exchanging one echo chamber for another, and frankly I take issue with painting them as if they are similarly discerning groups of people.

While I frequent all of these spaces, the "Discord bubble" is generally the one where listeners are more experienced (having actually heard a lot of the gear they're talking about) than a place like reddit. Additionally, they tend to care enough to better understand the benefits and limitations of audio measurements, whereas Head-Fi is largely antipathetic to measurements as a tool or topic of discussion.

These two things greatly influence ones ability to make an educated judgment, I'm sure you would agree. For that reason, I am fully confident in saying the bubble you complain about is on average the more discerning pool of consumers than either reddit or Head-Fi, which is why it's where I tend to spend the bulk of my time.

You're right, 'flop' wasn't the correct term; I meant to say 'downgrade' rather than 'flop' in that context. I apologize if that came off as rude. I just wanted to point out that in different niches of the hobby, people might not see the 660S2 as a downgrade.

I also share the same wish. From the Custom Cans videos, I got the impression that with the split between Sennheiser consumer and Sennheiser Pro, the HD 6X0 family is now part of the consumer/Sonova family. This seems like a substitute for the Sennheiser Pro portfolio, especially with the ear pad names ('Mixing' and 'Producing'), indicating a focus on the pro market, so different goals I guess. Hoping to see more details and better measurements.

 

[listenerwww]

You're right, 'flop' wasn't the correct term; I meant to say 'downgrade' rather than 'flop' in that context. I apologize if that came off as rude. I just wanted to point out that in different niches of the hobby, people might not see the 660S2 as a downgrade.

I also share the same wish. From the Custom Cans videos, I got the impression that with the split between Sennheiser consumer and Sennheiser Pro, the HD 6X0 family is now part of the consumer/Sonova family. This seems like a substitute for the Sennheiser Pro portfolio, especially with the ear pad names ('Mixing' and 'Producing'), indicating a focus on the pro market, so different goals I guess. Hoping to see more details and better measurements.

All good, I agree with a lot of what you posted and there was good info in there.

It does seem like the divide between Pro and Consumer is responsible for this, but it's a shame that neither division seems to be doing anything I'd call exemplary. That's just a personal opinion though.

Despite my jadedness, Sennheiser is still far and away my favorite headphone company, so I'm more-than-marginally excited for the HD 620S even if it also turns out to not be great.