[skeletor_bass]

A company that has no full specs on any headphone is a big "no" for me. That includes driver size, materials used, sensitivity, max input power etc...
Beyerdynamic is absolutely the same.
Sadly, people buy any crap nowadays and just look for pure personal interest, rather than rewarding companies with good standards.
For sennheiser - take a lesson or two from Japanese companies, though they do other sh$t, like making proprietary connectors etc..
This is because we did not punish them as buyers.

 

[Action123]

I wasn't serious. Just find it funny that they had a flagship with non detachable cable for so long. Typical big name approach. Just milk the product to its last. Same like Sony daps.

Honestly i only owned IE80S. But i could not say they vere extremely durable. My mate had them his unit had issues too. Not to mention that they were a joke for €300 even back then.
Hopefully they improved a lot since then.
Ie900 seems to aim for mid-high end market like CA. Id like to hear it even if tuning does not look like my cup.

I gotcha. I have the 64 Nio right now (my only IEM) and based on the current IE 900 reviews, it seems like they could be a similar sound signature (which I love). Fingers crossed!

 

[AlwaysForward]

Yes, probably when they market and tune the item towards professional use....


Please direct me to where this defined industry standard is written?

First off, I never said anything about a written standard and everyone reading this knows that. Are you actually trying to make a point here or just being antogonistic?

Second, I’m asking Sennheiser to talk about where this line is in this conversation.

Third, a reasonable assumption for their structure can derived their website’s “professional” section.

Fourth, I don’t think anyone would call the HD800 “Consumer Audio” in a natural conversation when describing the product to either a hifi native or a lay person.

 

[PhazeCrive]

I'm still a newbie to hi-fi, but I'm pretty sure I understand what too much bass and too much treble mean. Definitely not ideal in terms of sound fidelity, but aren't flat frequency responses not ideal for human ears? I find in some of my "flat headphones", I cannot hear details in the lower frequencies because it's flat and the mids and treble overshadow the texture and nuance in the bass.

After all, the human eardrum doesn't respond to bass frequencies like it does to human voices and treble. If you play a song at the lowest possible level you can hear, you find only the mids can really be heard and sometimes the treble due to the eardrum and bone structures amplifying those frequencies. Bass is not a frequency that gets amplified, so when I see "flat frequency responses where the bass kinda sits in line with the mids, that always hits me a little strangely. Mids are amplified to the ear, so shouldnt bass get just a bit of a boost so it can be heard?

 

[AlwaysForward]

I'm still a newbie to hi-fi, but I'm pretty sure I understand what too much bass and too much treble mean. Definitely not ideal in terms of sound fidelity, but aren't flat frequency responses not ideal for human ears? I find in some of my "flat headphones", I cannot hear details in the lower frequencies because it's flat and the mids and treble overshadow the texture and nuance in the bass.

After all, the human eardrum doesn't respond to bass frequencies like it does to human voices and treble. If you play a song at the lowest possible level you can hear, you find only the mids can really be heard and sometimes the treble due to the eardrum and bone structures amplifying those frequencies. Bass is not a frequency that gets amplified, so when I see "flat frequency responses where the bass kinda sits in line with the mids, that always hits me a little strangely. Mids are amplified to the ear, so shouldnt bass get just a bit of a boost so it can be heard?

Haha yes. That’s why there are so many discussions about headphone tuning. Your ears and anatomy are designed to make sense of sound in a real space.

Because an in ear monitor bypasses said space, there is a whole body of research and development in the field of tuning the response to emulate the response of speakers in a good room.

Definitely recommend looking for diffuse field and Harman Target theory in a google search to get you started on your mental models.

 

[Tristy]

First off, I never said anything about a written standard and everyone reading this knows that. Are you actually trying to make a point here or just being antogonistic?

Second, I’m asking Sennheiser to talk about where this line is in this conversation.

Third, a reasonable assumption for their structure can derived their website’s “professional” section.

Fourth, I don’t think anyone would call the HD800 “Consumer Audio” in a natural conversation when describing the product to either a hifi native or a lay person.

I couldn't make myself any clearer if I tried. You are clearly annoyed that this product isn't priced lower so to YOU it doesn't fit in with your preconceptions of what a 'consumer' product should be. There is no universally accepted notion of what a consumer product is, if it isn't targeted at professionals it is probably targeted at consumers. Ferarri or no Ferrari. Its just not targeted at YOUR consumer demographic.

 

[Malfunkt]

Same here. I like other products, but none of the planars or Focal headphones will ever be as reliable as German headphones.

This is true in my experience. I have a Utopia, several years old. Focal replaced one of the drivers, and also the cable under warranty that was transferred to me from the original owner. So, all in all, I'm happy. As a speaker manufacturer Focal definitely has the chops, and while the Utopia comes a whole generation after the HD800, it is/was a new benchmark for dynamic drivers. Still, the Utopia is heavy and uncomfortable in comparison to the HD800.

In terms of frequency response, I find few headphones to be perfect out of the box, however absolute realistic frequency response isn't entirely necessary for music enjoyment. Our brains acclimate to many frequency presentations. For example, the HD8 DJ - has a very natural mid-range, low distortion, shelved treble combined with heavy sub bass. It sounds like you are listening to music in a cavernous warehouse, large club. As long as you perceive it that way (and as a former DJ this isn't hard) you can enjoy it. But coming from a brighter headphone it can be offputting. A brighter mid-range headphone may change the perception of sound to being more intimate, closer and engaging. An IEM that has a reference flat frequency response to be closer to Etymotic, can sound a bit dull, but the key is to turn them up a bit.

Point is, there are so many factors: frequency curve, HRTF, spatial DSP vs regular stereo, volume level, music type, mental perception of room/enviroment, mood/mindset, etc.

From what it looks like, the IE300 / IE900 appears to be the perfect headphone for just immersing yourself, especially with the SPL of high-quality, low distortion bass that is unique in its presentation from over-ear headphones.

 

[misteral201103]

I watched the Joshua Valor review last night on YouTube. Very positive and nice to see him so enthusiastic and sightly carried away over a product. Worth checking out for those interested in another response to these iems.

 

[AlwaysForward]

I couldn't make myself any clearer if I tried. You are clearly annoyed that this product isn't priced lower so to YOU it doesn't fit in with you preconceptions of what a 'consumer' product should be. There is no universally accepted notion of what a consumer product is, if it isn't targeted at professionals it is clearly targeted at consumers. Ferarri or no Ferrari. Its just not targeted at YOUR consumer demographic.

Got it, thanks for clarifying your point

 

[Reebonz]

I watched the Joshua Valor review last night on YouTube. Very positive and nice to see him so enthusiastic and sightly carried away over a product. Worth checking out for those interested in another response to these iems.

Yup, Josh said the IE900's bass blows the Empire Ears Odin and FIR M5 out of the water. The bass is incredibly strong, clean, clear and is the type of bass response found in very expensive subwoofers. When the bass hits, things feel enormous.

This iem is getting hyped!

 

[barcastaff]

So perhaps I misunderstood the scope of the “consumer” business at Sennheiser. I was thinking of mostly the types of SKUs you’d see at Best Buy rather than Magnolia HiFi. Things like the Momentum line or models with “CX” in the moniker.

I expected non-consumer models to include basically anything with “HD” or “IE” in the moniker.

Maybe this is an opportunity for Sennheiser to share more details on how things change for the respective lines.

Someone on Reddit has emailed Sennheiser, and they did say that the HD line belongs to the Consumer Division, so it is being sold off. I wouldn’t imagine the IE line (bar the Pro ones) being any different.

 

[Otto Motor]

Someone on Reddit has emailed Sennheiser, and they did say that the HD line belongs to the Consumer Division, so it is being sold off. I wouldn’t imagine the IE line (bar the Pro ones) being any different.

"Consumer" refers to recreational gear, and professional means gear used in professional audio recordings or amplification. The German parliament, for example, uses a Sennheiser sound system...and so does any press room of any German soccer club. And some of the Sennheiser products are used in TV/radio production. That's gear "normal" people don't have in their homes.

As to advertising the IE900: YouTube videos and written reviews/unboxings cropped up simultaneously yesterday - what a coincidence .

And to the people who rant about Sennheiser items being overpriced/mediocre. Their iems are designed by German audio engineers with authentic reproduction and low THD in mind. People today are calibrated on multidrivers at bargain prices. But, Sennheiser pay German salaries & benefits, they put invest in proper R&D, offer a 2-year warranty, and the overbred Chinese multis rely on crossovers, distort at lower SPL, and offer sound signatures that are frequently totally unrealistic. Just compare higher-end iems with classical music.

So no wonder that Sennheiser models stay in their catalogue for many years whereas other iems barely survive the next weekend.

 

[Scubadevils]

"Consumer" refers to recreational gear, and professional means gear used in professional audio recordings or amplification. The German parliament, for example, uses a Sennheiser sound system...and so does any press room of any German soccer club. And some of the Sennheiser products are used in TV/radio production. That's gear "normal" people don't have in their homes.

As to advertising the IE900: YouTube videos and written reviews/unboxings cropped up simultaneously yesterday - what a coincidence .

And to the people who rant about Sennheiser items being overpriced/mediocre. Their iems are designed by German audio engineers with authentic reproduction and low THD in mind. People today are calibrated on multidrivers at bargain prices. But, Sennheiser pay German salaries & benefits, they put invest in proper R&D, offer a 2-year warranty, and the overbred Chinese multis rely on crossovers, distort at lower SPL, and offer sound signatures that are frequently totally unrealistic. Just compare higher-end iems with classical music.

So no wonder that Sennheiser models stay in their catalogue for many years whereas other iems barely survive the next weekend.

One of my first impressions with the IE 900 was how natural it sounds compared to the UM MEST MKII for example... I love the MKII but it can absolutely sound unrealistic at times, soundstage a bit too wide, deep and instrument positioning can feel wrong as a result. IE 900 bass far superior to the MEST also.

 

[AlwaysForward]

"Consumer" refers to recreational gear, and professional means gear used in professional audio recordings or amplification. The German parliament, for example, uses a Sennheiser sound system...and so does any press room of any German soccer club. And some of the Sennheiser products are used in TV/radio production. That's gear "normal" people don't have in their homes.

Yeah so this is a good answer to “what is consumer vs professional in general” and tracks very well for me… But then at the end, there’s that point about what “normal” people have in their homes and that’s not the HD800. Maybe the HD6XX, but that’s entry level gear for a hobby that’s specifically not “normal.” The HD600 has a fairly reference tuning out of the box. Many people have written on EQing the HD800 to reference tuning.

I think the Ferrari analogy is still apt: Ferrari’s “consumer” cars are not for “normal people.” They make professional racing equipment and the development of the racing technologies is incorporated into the consumer product development features/narrative. Some of the “consumer” stuff is pro and all of it can get modified to pro. None of the above is for “normal people”.

Semantics aside, the question was originally meant to focus business structure and subsequent impact of the “sale” of the “consumer products groi

Someone on Reddit has emailed Sennheiser, and they did say that the HD line belongs to the Consumer Division, so it is being sold off. I wouldn’t imagine the IE line (bar the Pro ones) being any different.

IE Line comments are a great example of how an org structure may not be intuitive. We can find a number of IE models squarely aimed at “consumers” and others at “professionals.” One could argue the HD600 is for professional use rather than consumer enjoyment but the HD600 team is acquired.

Does that include Axel Grell?

Just because we can get to some kind of conversational alignment on “pro vs consumer” doesn’t mean it actually has bearing on an internal product team’s structure nor how alignments/structures might have evolved over time.

Most people who have spent significant time in product development orgs have seen leaders show up that, through extremely competent performance can consolidate seemingly unconnected teams into their team umbrella over time. Which is likely to stay in that place/structures after their departure depending on the situation and organizational goals, assuming that the organization was successful.


This isn't just a pattern in tech product organizations but Orratory1990 speaks to how this dynamic emerges in headphones producing organizations:

“The thing you have to know about Sony (and any other large company) is that it‘s not one engineer designing it all. Not even all audio products. Not even all headphones. It‘s not even the same team developing all headphones. Much like with Sennheiser or AKG, there‘s absolutely no such thing as a „Sony house sound“.
The thing you have to know about Sony (and any other large company) is that it‘s not one engineer designing it all. Not even all audio products. Not even all headphones. It‘s not even the same team developing all headphones. Much like with Sennheiser or AKG, there‘s absolutely no such thing as a „Sony house sound“.
The afore mentioned in-ear headphones were designed by Sony‘s audiophile team. Their high-end noise cancelling headphones are designed by a different team, and they are given different goals. For the 1000X series over-ear headphones the goal was not to produce audiophile sound signatures that reproduce the music as-is.
Yes, the WH1000XM3 has congested, overly pronounced bass.
The IEMs i mentioned sound nothing like it.”

In the above example, there is an existence proof of a direct competitor for the equivalent HD/IE & Momentum lines breaking up the teams into separate focused groups.

They probably also have a “professional” team that’s separated and responsible for 7506 headphones, various microphones etc

So: even if everyone agrees “audiophile products are consumer audio” it could still be that the internal “consumer products team” looks nothing like what that conversation winds up aligned on.

 

[misteral201103]

One of my first impressions with the IE 900 was how natural it sounds compared to the UM MEST MKII for example... I love the MKII but it can absolutely sound unrealistic at times, soundstage a bit too wide, deep and instrument positioning can feel wrong as a result. IE 900 bass far superior to the MEST also.

Thanks for providing a brief comparison. IE 900 bass is superior? Damn! (in a good way )