Sony MDR-SA5000 review
Sep 4, 2005 at 11:57 AM Post #16 of 239
Great review though it confirms I should stay clear
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I'm burning in my Senn 650 because I felt the Beyer 880 was a little too forward, not something most people would think is really a fault of the Beyer. So the Sony would dip well into the realm of forward/bright for my tastes.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 3:18 PM Post #17 of 239
I have to say that in terms of resolving power, I feel these to possess the characteristics of the Sennheiser HD25-1, and also the ER-4S... in that the relative brightness and the sharper, mid-slightly-recessed nature can impede the discerning ability of true detail. Stacking them up to the W2002, it's clear as day that the SA5K is guilty of some fudging.


Brightness does not equal detail. The O2's may be treble-lean, but the detail is there in the bands that it delivers. And it is superior to the SA5K. It is dependent on the tastes of course whether you prefer an incisive, clean-sounding rendition or a warmer yet highly accurate presentation. The same yardstick applies to the SA5000's even brighter brother, and it's the reason why it is harder to figure out than many darker phones for actual ability... but it does not fudge.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 3:28 PM Post #18 of 239
Excellent review and the fact that it heralds the return of Vertigo1 makes it even more special
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I am glad that more people are "feeling" the SA5000 for it's strengths and tolerating it's weaknesses. There are headphones that claim to do a lot more but end up falling well short of the SA5000s capabilities. Now it is definitely not a headphone for everyone - but - neither is the HD-650. The HD-650 can be enthralling for one listener and sopoforic for another...

To my ears a good system for the SA5000 would be one that emphasized it's strengths and covers for it's weaknesses.

* A source that is slightly on the warm side
* A flat amp (I prefer SS to tubes with the SA5K)
* Neutral interconnects
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 3:56 PM Post #19 of 239
Concerning "fake" detail, Norwitz and Qvortrup address this phenomenon in the section quoted below. I have found that the SA5000 excels at resolution rather than detail. With the SA5000 I can understand bits of lyrics that were previously obscured, or hear irregularities in a piano phrase that previously seemed like an even legato. These are not disconnected micro-events, they are coherent musical elements. Hence, in the words of Norwitz and Qvortrup, the SA5000 is highly resolving, not highly detailed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Norwitz and Peter Qvortrup

Detail and Resolution

We'd like to briefly examine one of the more interesting misperceptions common to audio critique. Many listeners speak of a playback system's revolving power in terms of its ability to articulate detail, i.e. previous unnoticed phenomena. However, it is more likely that what these listeners are responding to when they say such-and-such has more "detail" is: unconnected micro-events in the frequency and time domains. (These are events that, if they were properly connected, would have realized the correct presentation of harmonic structure, attack, and legato.) Because these events are of incredibly short duration and because there is absolutely no analog to such events in the natural world and are now being revealed to them by the sheer excellence of their audio, these listeners believe that they are hearing something for the first time, which they are! And largely because of this, they are more easily misled into a belief that what they are hearing is relevant and correct. The matter is aided and abetted by the apparentness of the perception. These "details" are undeniably there; it is only their meaning which has become subverted. The truth is that we only perceive such "detail" from an audio playback system; but never in a live musical performance.


"Resolution" on the other hand is the effect produced when these micro-events are connected ... in other words, when the events are so small that detail is unperceivable. When these events are correctly connected, we experience a more accurate sense of a musical performance. This is not unlike the way in which we perceive the difference between video and film. Video would seem to have more detail, more apparent individual visual events; but film obviously has greater resolution. If it weren't for the fact that detail in video is made up of such large particles as compared to the micro-events which exist in audio, we might not have been misled about the term "detail", and would have called it by its proper name, which is "grain". Grain creates the perception of more events, particularly in the treble region, because they are made to stand out from the musical texture in an unnaturally highlighted form. In true high-resolution audio systems, grain disappears and is replaced by a seamless flow of connected musical happenings. [cf. "As Time Goes By" Positive Feedback Magazine, Vol. 4, No. 4-5, Fall '93].



 
Sep 4, 2005 at 4:31 PM Post #20 of 239
In many more complex electronica and vocal/orchestral recordings, the contiguous musical/note elements in the midrange which were obscured, especially when there was mid-bass information also present on the SA5000 were brought out by the W2002 and the O2. I must say that in doing similar comparisons some time ago, the HD650 did not provide that mask/reveal effect although by it's nature, certain elements of the music was not exactly pushed to the forefront.


Your reference has some great passages which I could never have articulated myself. Following the phraseology of the article, what does surprise me about the SA5000 is that for all the detail it seems to have, it lacks resolution when compared with my references. In that way, I hear (although the issues are different) elements which renders it commonly detail-heavy / resolution-handicapped as with the Etymotics.


I like the SA5000 as a headphone that's relatively effortless to listen to as well as putting the kick into my electronica, given my 'if pressed' preference for slightly brighter phones. However I don't really find myself lumping these into the same character of phones as myother premium phones... to me, they sit in the same character pile as the MDR-V700DJ... albeit significantly more capable. Perhaps that's why I like the SA5K, as they're less po-faced. However to me there's no question that they suffer somewhat in terms of their ability to resolve given their tuning.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 4:46 PM Post #21 of 239
Excellent post, ephemre. In some respects the analogy to video is even more apt. When I first converted to HDTV I was often struck by how much I was seeing that I didn't necessarily want to see, such as poorly applied makeup. With good programming HDTV is wonderful, but you do see it all, including the warts.

Same with the SA5K. Poor recordings can produce something akin to a stench in the ear, but the good stuff is simply aural ambrosia.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 6:05 PM Post #23 of 239
[size=small]In some respects this is the best review I have heard on the SA5000's, and it comes from the man who almost "talked" me into buying the ER-4B's.
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(I still may get them, but the UE-10's and the Westone E3's are ssooooo distracting!)[/size]


Quote:

Originally Posted by Vertigo-1
[size=large]Sony MDR-SA5000 Review[/size]

The midrange on the SA5000 can probably be summed up in one word: clear. It is brutally, coldly, ruthlessly clear, and in and of itself offers little warmth. If you like having deliberately heavy warmth added to the midrange, this is definitely not the headphone for you. This is a headphone that relies upon the recording itself to invoke emotions, particularly in the area of voices. Personally, I like it. I’ve learned to recognize that a good singer knows how to project emotion into the singing almost effortlessly, while bad singers or amateur singers will tend to sound flat and cold. You can really hear the naked emotions being projected in a good singer’s voice through these SA5000s, as it’s not being hidden behind any additional warmth. I’ve found that headphones with warm midranges tend to give emotion to any voice, whether it was there to begin with or not.



[size=small]This is very important to me as I love to get an accurate feel of the relative quality of singers's voices, to be able to clearly hear why an Ella Fitzgerald trumps a Barbra Streisand or an Anita Baker or ... .[/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vertigo-1
The headstage also helps increase the perception of detail, because it’s a very near-field headstage. The overall size of the headstage is very small. The result is everything feels as though it’s playing extra close to you. When combined with the speed of this headphone, it becomes very easy to pinpoint instruments in an ensemble. However, at times this can become somewhat fatiguing as the brain tries to cope with the sheer amount of details being focused at you at close range. At times the listening experience almost becomes claustrophobic. The headstage sometimes gets so small on some recordings that the imaging goes flat, and you can no longer get a sense of anything playing in “front” of you. You get a relative sense of position, but it simply sounds as if everything’s located right between your ears, literally. This, I feel is a weakness of the SA5000s, in that it’s not very good at pushing the imaging out in front of you. Most headphones can pull this off to some degree without much difficulty, but the SA5000s struggle a bit here.


[size=small]It would be interesting to hear you review the Qualia 010 since the 010's supposedly have a larger soundstage and are very close to the SA5K's detail-wise.[/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vertigo-1
I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned too often in past SA5000 reviews, but I think these headphones would be amazing as studio monitoring headphones, because of their analytical and revealing nature. But I honestly don’t think I would recommend these headphones to those that truly love music , in the musicality sense, and want a headphone that can truly reproduce music. Those that have come to love the Sony MDR-R10s over time can probably appreciate what I’m trying to say here. The SA5000s headphones are like taking a quick dance with some girl (or guy) that you’re not familiar with…good for a quick fling, but perhaps not so good for permanence. IMO, you really need to be firmly in the camp of listeners that prefers a clean, flat presentation to enjoy these headphones long term. Those that prefer a warmer, gentler musical presentation should consider other headphones. Personally, I’m in the “quick fling” camp…my listening time with headphones now days is very short, and I simply want a headphone that can quickly deliver all the musical content available in a recording. For that simple purpose, the MDR-SA5000s are exactly what I’m looking for.


[size=small]The studio monitoring usage has not been prominently mentioned before, although a few members have alluded to it. I love details, and this is what I look for in all audio gear. Since AKG tripped up my plans to snare some K501's by coming out with the K601/K701 twins and forcing me to reconsider my AKG can priority list, the SA5000's may just move up to #1 on my headphone hit list. (There's also the Joe Grado HP2's, but those are going to cost more than twice as much as the SA5K's.)

The problem with sorting through phone reviews is having to deal with ravings of the detail "wusses"
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who simply cannot appreciate that hyper detail is fun! It is great to welcome back an expereinced detail loving freak like myself. Vertigo, you've been away too long.[/size]
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 6:39 PM Post #24 of 239
Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman
Your reference has some great passages which I could never have articulated myself.


Yes, I thought it might resonate with you. I remember a post you made a while ago about the Etymotics detail abilities that drew similar distinctions.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 7:29 PM Post #25 of 239
The SA5000 has great detail and resolution, that's for sure, nevertheless I feel the need to counterbalance the general enthusiasm. I don't think resolution is sensational, it's just good, maybe a bit better than with the HD 650, but lower than with my electrostats. What's outstanding is detail, as a result of both the high resolution and the exposed treble. I don't hear any sibilance as well, nor a really fatiguing characteristic, but an annoying lack of coherence and a quite strong coloration in the upper mids/lower treble: a hump from 2 to 5 kHz forming a downright plateau and even overriding the brilliance area. The bass is articulate and strong enough, but sounds like attached to the lower mids which in turn show a distinct dip (or something like that). Both these irregularities are primarily responsible for the high «detail». Add to this the reverberative glare due to the underdampened earpieces -- which is fixable to some degree with some lining measures.

gerG's measurements represent my sonic impression quite well. I suggest to listen to some pink noise through the SA5000... you'll be surprised!
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Although everybody's hearing is different, of course.

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Sep 4, 2005 at 8:07 PM Post #26 of 239
Spand,
Welcome back. How have u been?

Jazz,
My impression of the SA5K is similar to you. I dislike the midrange presentation and the grado-like soundstage on the SA5K. I admit liking the resolution and details on the SA5K, but at the end of the day..I found the SA5K too analytical for my taste and moved back to my Senn HD-650 w/ Zu.
 
Sep 4, 2005 at 8:31 PM Post #27 of 239
Quote:

Originally Posted by purk
Spad,
Welcome back. How have u been?



Oh yeah, almost overlooked: Welcome back, Spad!
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Quote:

....I found the SA5K too analytical for my taste and moved back to my Senn HD-650 w/ Zu.


«Analytical» is the keyword. An analytical sound can't be a neutral, natural sound. It implies overemphasized detail.


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Sep 4, 2005 at 11:20 PM Post #29 of 239
Thanks, Jazz.

Actually, I'm doing pretty well, Purk. Nothing appears to be imminent, so I may be around a while yet. Which means time for more gear!

Jazz, I was under the impression that even gerG questioned the validity of his methodology, no? Maybe I should go back for another look.

I really like my Senns, but it's only a slight exaggeration to say that when I pull the Senns and pop on the Sonys it's like moving from the back of the hall to about third row center. If the SA5K's frequency response is that screwed up it must represent something awfully close to a mirror image of hearing problems I never knew I had. At least the algebraic sum seems pretty ideal to me.

Man, I sure hope they'll let me back on that turnip wagon!
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