[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

You really can't make that determination without specifying what type of music you're playing and how the rest of the band is tuned.     
 
I have a pair of D2000's which to me are perfect - bass when you need it - not when you don't.  I'd be curious to know how these measure.  If they have greater gain than the M-80's, then what we're really discussing is the difference between superior and inferior products - bass quantity notwithstanding.

 
D2000 have about similar bass quantity to it as M80, about 6dB boost or so and yes they are generally concidered superior to M80 as their pricing suggests too (they may have been a bit cheaper in US overall but in europe they cost more like 300 EUR when M80 is more like 180 EUR). Generally speaking the D2000 is often concidered a basshead headphone, recommended towards people with a preference in boosted bass.
 
Denon's bass is generally softer and deeper skewed which can be see from the more even and lower extending bass than M80's more punchy, more mid-bass focused bass (pointy, curvy shape in the bass that has a peak around the midbass frequencies), I think you may prefer subbass focus over midbass presence. A lot of people dislike midbass, for some it's the opposite, it often comes down to taste as I don't see how one can justifying saying "subbass" is better than "midbass" for example. I prefer evenly balanced midbass vs subbass preference, I'd think for example D2000 would probably have slightly too little midbass versus its subbass for my liking. Many audiophiles tend to also think D2000's bass is a bit on the more loose side, not very well controlled but again it probably comes from the subbass focus (subbass = slower).

 

[Gclef]

Okay.  To my ears between the D2000 and M80 - Denons are tight, detailed and controlled - the M-80's quite the opposite.  So with the price tag of the M-100's being $300, can we expect the M-100's to rival the Denons in quality?  I should hope so.  Maybe with better quality (refined/controlled) bass, the M-100's may not sound as bassy as the measurement indicates?  That certainly seems to be the case with the D2000's.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

Okay.  To my ears between the D2000 and M80 - Denons are tight, detailed and controlled - the M-80's quite the opposite.  So with the price tag of the M-100's being $300, can we expect the M-100's to rival the Denons in quality?  I should hope so.  Maybe with better quality (refined/controlled) bass, the M-100's may not sound as bassy as the measurement indicates?  That certainly seems to be the case with the D2000's.

 
No measurements doesn't lie, if you know how to read them. It's about the shape of the bass response area. The M80 have more impact to it which you percieve as quantity, while D2000 has similar audible quantity of bass but less "feel" the bass going on. Midbass can tend to overshadow mid clarity a bit easier than subbass too. Denon D2000 has a rather even bass response in the 20 - 200Hz region while M80's is more "pointy"/hill-shaped which results to more impact to it.
 
Compare:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000B2012.pdf
 
to
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/VModaM80.pdf

 

[Gclef]

Interesting.  I don't know all the audiophile terms, but from where I sit, you seem to be talking about texture. What you're saying makes sense to me.  The feel of the bass - extending into the mids - is exactly what I don't like.  So, generally speaking, if this (midbass) is the footprint of V-Moda, I don't think the M-100's is what I'm looking for (or what I'd hope they would be).  Ideally I want the D2000's in a portable package.  But I'm still really curious what the actual (M-100) product will sound like.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

Interesting.  I don't know all the audiophile terms, but from where I sit, you seem to be talking about texture. What you're saying makes sense to me.  The feel of the bass - extending into the mids - is exactly what I don't like.  So, generally speaking, if this (midbass) is the footprint of V-Moda, I don't think the M-100's is what I'm looking for (or what I'd hope they would be).  Ideally I want the D2000's in a portable package.  But I'm still really curious what the actual (M-100) product will sound like.

 
Texture is just a definition of how well you can percieve the bass detail (like if there's different elements in the bass itself how well you pick out all those) and is the opposite to boomy = singlenote bass. Generally the flatter the better texture but it's not usually that simple (resonace in the cups have equally much importance for example). But yea we don't know anything about M100's bass "texture" either and this is something measurements doesn't reveal (OK well maybe CSD waterfall plots perhaps to some extent) so best is just to wait and see. The one person which responded in the M100 thread with his impressions about a pre-launch M100 sample is that it had according to him very good bass texture and I think this person had quite a good collection of headphones if my memory serves me right. But yea let's wait and see.

 

[gelocks]

I just have to say... I WANT IT!!!!

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

I think it all depends on where you're coming from.  I have a pair of D7000's....and in no way would i ever unfairly compare the two, but just to emphasize a specific point....if you regularly listen to tight-controlled-punchy-accurate bass, everything else pales in comparison.  I guess it also depends on your definition of bloat.  Personally, the M-80's fall into the same class as the Q40's, DT770's and the like.  To my ears, they have a cloud of low frequency resonance hovering around everywhere in the entire spectrum.  And coupled with the roll-off on the high-end, they just come off as being fat and soft.  IMHO of course.  When I think of neutral, I'm thinking more like HD-25, DT1350, etc.  If you consider the M-80's neutral, what exactly do you consider to be bassy?
 

I honestly felt the HD-25 was a bit more bloated in the midbass than the M-80 - it hit WAY harder and it got a bit fatiguing pretty quickly with music that had tons of bass.  But I never really had a chance to listen to it with anything else.

I think the biggest problem here is that we probably listen to utterly different genres of music.  Music like EDM pretty much demands that headphones have a fair amount of bass, and the M-80 is really on the lower limits of what is require to actually enjoy it.

That said, I really don't think the M-80s ever have too much bass for any genres.  They work well for classical and rock too, at least for me.

Again, this is probably just a difference in tastes.  I wouldn't call the M-80 objectively "inferior" to any of the other headphones you've mentioned (except maybe super-high end ones like the D7000), but simply "different."  Just like people have different tastes with music, people obviously have different tastes in headphones.

Also, I think you are massively underestimating the headphone industry in scope - you seem to be thinking in terms of just audiophiles.  Yes, that is a market, and yes, there is a lot of revenue in that market, but in terms of sheer volume, it is miniscule.  How do you think Beats by Dr Dre got so big?  They appealed to the "mainstream" and made it cool to spend so much money on headphones, and they delivered gobs of bass, which is what people wanted.
 
The M-100s are meant to compete in that market, not necessarily just the audiophile market with Denon, Beyerdynamic and AKG.  V-Moda is really trying to bridge the gap between the two markets - to date, there haven't been many headphones that have gotten popular among both audiophiles and mainstream consumers, simply because we have completely different needs.  They hope to address the needs of your average consumer (looks, portability, durability, usability) and those of audiophiles (essentially just good sound).  It would obviously be impossible to address EVERYONE's needs - if they released the M-100 with an AKG K701 sound, it would be a total flop in the consumer segment, and it would again ignore the basshead segment of the audiophile market, which doesn't get much exposure.

So I guess it's totally okay if you don't actually want the M-100s because you feel they might have too much bass.  V-Moda just didn't make them with you in mind - and there are many other great headphones out there which would probably work better for you.  I guess the best thing to do now is to just wait and see what everyone says once they actually come out.

 

[A Ham Sandwich]

I listen to chiefly EDM and I don't find the M-80 lacking bass excessively at all.  I mean, it's an ultra-portable can so I don't expect it to reach the depths that my D2000 can, but it hasn't left me disappointed by any means.

 

[roma101]

Sub'd. I'm looking forward to when these come out (have been looking forward to them since receiving the M-80). Only time will tell and even though they will have more bass quantity/detail than the M-80, something tells me they will be very balanced across the spectrum. AnakChan had some good things to say about the final production model so I'm pretty hopeful.

As far as the bass on the M-80, quantity wise they're very similar to the HD25 but the bass detail/extension tops the HD25 IMO. I wouldn't call the bass on any of these cans bloated by any means (punchy with good amount of impact IMO) but in the end it's all subjective and everyone has their preferences.

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

I listen to chiefly EDM and I don't find the M-80 lacking bass excessively at all.  I mean, it's an ultra-portable can so I don't expect it to reach the depths that my D2000 can, but it hasn't left me disappointed by any means.

Well I wouldn't say that the M-80 lacks bass at all either, just that it isn't boosted excessively.  I'd accept less bass too, but I would honestly prefer a bit more extension downwards sometimes.  But if there's too much more they'll just be less useful for most non-electronic music, so there has to be a balance.

 

[ninjames]

Looking forward to listening to these and posting in this thread. That other thread really is ridiculous. Everyone is talking about how they're better than anything in the price range, Val is saying they sound better than any headphone ever made, etc etc. People come to this site uninformed and they usually leave with a lot less money and a new outlook on audio and their music. Threads like that are directly contradictory to that.
 
But yeah, I'd actually be happy if it just sounds like a more refined M-80. I guess my head has grown because the M-80 are one of my favorite-sounding headphones and they suddenly ... don't fit as well as they used to, so looking forward to circumaural. I definitely don't think the M-80 has any bloat at all. Bloat, to me, is the rattle and the quantity. There's not much of that at all. I love the punchiness of it though. I think it punches very well and hope that's not lost in the transition to circumaural/M-100.

 

[Gclef]

Quote:

Looking forward to listening to these and posting in this thread. That other thread really is ridiculous. Everyone is talking about how they're better than anything in the price range, Val is saying they sound better than any headphone ever made, etc etc. People come to this site uninformed and they usually leave with a lot less money and a new outlook on audio and their music. Threads like that are directly contradictory to that.
 
But yeah, I'd actually be happy if it just sounds like a more refined M-80. I guess my head has grown because the M-80 are one of my favorite-sounding headphones and they suddenly ... don't fit as well as they used to, so looking forward to circumaural. I definitely don't think the M-80 has any bloat at all. Bloat, to me, is the rattle and the quantity. There's not much of that at all. I love the punchiness of it though. I think it punches very well and hope that's not lost in the transition to circumaural/M-100.

I'm right there with you.  Maybe I just did a poor job of explaining myself - I don't think the M-80's have too much bass, maybe bloat was the wrong choice of words, they just lack sharpness and detail in my opinion.  I'm not an audiophile, I'm a musician, and as musicians go...we look for engaging sound.  For the type of music I listen to, the M-80's leave me a bit flat when it comes to piano and electric/acoustic guitar.  For EDM - perfect.  For acoustics - not so much. 
 
In any event, I'm very happy you posted here.   I hope this post will serve as neutral ground to accurately review the M-100's after they do launch and hope that others will join us. 

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

I'm right there with you.  Maybe I just did a poor job of explaining myself - I don't think the M-80's have too much bass, maybe bloat was the wrong choice of words, they just lack sharpness and detail in my opinion.  I'm not an audiophile, I'm a musician, and as musicians go...we look for engaging sound.  For the type of music I listen to, the M-80's leave me a bit flat when it comes to piano and electric/acoustic guitar.  For EDM - perfect.  For acoustics - not so much. 
 
In any event, I'm very happy you posted here.   I hope this post will serve as neutral ground to accurately review the M-100's after they do launch and hope that others will join us. 

I totally agree when you say that they don't sound very "sharp."  The HD-25s are much better in that aspect.  Sometimes the M-80s leave a bit to be desired in that aspect with me too - but with EDM, it's not such a big deal most of the time.  I do hope the M-100 is better in this aspect though.

Honestly I think audio terms and conveying sounds via text are the bane of an audiophile's existence.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

I love my M-Audio Q40 for both EDM and acoustic especially, I listen to almost all kinds of music, I don't see how M100 would be able to satisfy me more but who knows.

 

[Malevolent]

Actually, I've never really got a chance to ask this in the other thread, but what is it that you guys want from the M-100? Better bass performance? Overall higher quality sound? Better highs?
 
For me, I just want an M-80 with greater bass quantity without sacrificing on the detail. As I prefer to listen on my LP2s to my M-80s (chiefly due to the comfort of the former), the M-100 pretty much has that covered. I think a larger M-80 with the same general sound signature with better bass is pretty much what I'm looking for.