[Mark200]

Here are the some of the specs of my Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amplifier that shows the difference between balanced and single-end headphone connection:

Balanced Headphone Output:
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 6.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 5.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 3.2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 1000mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 500mW RMS per channel

Single-Ended Headphone Output:
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2.2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 2.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 300mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 150mW RMS per channel

THD+N:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Less than 0.0001% (-119dB) at 4V RMS into 32 ohms
High Gain, Balanced Output: Less than 0.0003% (-110dB) at 4V RMS into 32 ohms
Low Gain, SE Output: Less than 0.003% (-90dB) at 1V RMS into 32 ohms
High Gain, SE Output: Less than 0.004% (-87db) at 2V RMS into 32 ohms

IMD:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Less than -112dB at 4V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
High Gain, Balanced Output: Less than -110dB at 4V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
Low Gain, SE Output: Less than -73dB at 1V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
High Gain, SE Output: Less than -72dB at 2V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF

SNR:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Greater than 125dB, unweighted, referenced to 4V RMS
High Gain, Balanced Output: Greater than 115dB, unweighted, referenced to 4V RMS
Low Gain, SE Output: Greater than 105dB, unweighted, referenced to 1V RMS
High Gain, SE Output: Greater than 110dB, unweighted, referenced to 2V RMS

 

[It Hz]

Thanks Mark for clearing that up for me.

Getting into audio equipment always has you 2nd guessing whether you made the right choice for component selection. My budget started off at a $1000 for my computer driven DAC/headphone system and so far I spent more than triple that! It's a very "slippery slope". Stereo equipment is not a hobby, it's a "mental condition", someone please make it stop!

I was into this over 40 years ago as a teenager, caught the bug 10 years later and now it's back

So far I have a Burson Playmate 2 with rolled op amps (Sparko 2590's and Sonic Imagery 994's), Arya V3's, Kanto YU's and SUB8's powered speakers and plan on getting the Burson 3A Supercharger and Blue Jean cables just before it empties my wallet.

But I'm glad I joined this forum and have learned a lot and has helped me make better (ie: more expensive) choices. Lots of very smart people on this site. I'm sure I will be very happy with my system which I will get years if enjoyment from

I wonder if I should get those Sparko discrete voltage regulators

 

[Thomasr]

Here are the some of the specs of my Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amplifier that shows the difference between balanced and single-end headphone connection:

Balanced Headphone Output:
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 6.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 5.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 3.2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 1000mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 500mW RMS per channel

Single-Ended Headphone Output:
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 2.2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 2.0W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 300mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 150mW RMS per channel

THD+N:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Less than 0.0001% (-119dB) at 4V RMS into 32 ohms
High Gain, Balanced Output: Less than 0.0003% (-110dB) at 4V RMS into 32 ohms
Low Gain, SE Output: Less than 0.003% (-90dB) at 1V RMS into 32 ohms
High Gain, SE Output: Less than 0.004% (-87db) at 2V RMS into 32 ohms

IMD:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Less than -112dB at 4V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
High Gain, Balanced Output: Less than -110dB at 4V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
Low Gain, SE Output: Less than -73dB at 1V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF
High Gain, SE Output: Less than -72dB at 2V RMS into 32 ohms, CCIF

SNR:
Low Gain, Balanced Output: Greater than 125dB, unweighted, referenced to 4V RMS
High Gain, Balanced Output: Greater than 115dB, unweighted, referenced to 4V RMS
Low Gain, SE Output: Greater than 105dB, unweighted, referenced to 1V RMS
High Gain, SE Output: Greater than 110dB, unweighted, referenced to 2V RMS

Interesting. My HO200 is also rated for 6000mW into 16 ohms, and I assume that's differential not single-ended (documentation I've found doesn't make it explicitly clear). So with the M1570 being 60 ohms, they're probably only getting ~1000mW from the 6.3mm jack.

 

[buke9]

I’m going balanced when at all possible. Is it better well you decide I like the added power as most balanced amps double the power from single ended . For someone that has several power hungry planars balanced balanced is the way to go for me.

 

[tomb]

If you don't have a balanced amp, then merely converting a single ended headphone connector to a balanced headphone cable via an adapter will not make any different as you indicated.

Not really. As long as the headphone cable has two conductors for ground, separating them into a 4-pin plug (like XLR) will provide an audible benefit in S/N.

Typically a true balanced amplifier circuit has better channel separation than a single end amp. That is because the amp circuits for left and right are completely separate in a balanced design and there is not a common negative circuit like there is in a single ended. That is why a single ended headphone output has only 3 connectors for both channels combined, and balanced has 4 connectors.

This is a bit of a nit, but there are amps that are not fully differential (better than saying balanced) that still don't have a shared ground or a common negative. The lowly CMoy, for instance, uses a floating ground with respect to the batteries.

Many balanced amps will publish two different channel separation specifications depending on whether it is run in balanced or single-ended mode.

However, because a balanced amp (not just balanced cable) has 2 completely different amp circuits, the typical output voltage from a balanced amp is twice that of a single ended amp at a given headphone impedance. This is more important for headphones with impedance loads of 150 ohms or more because higher impedance headphones cause the available maximum output voltage rating to drop on the amplifier headphone amp. Almost headphone amps will give you the output voltage specs of various headphone impedance loads Balanced amps will also give the voltage output depending on whether one is using the single-ended mode, or balanced mode outputs of the amp.

Some of this is true in a general sense. However, it is not true to say, "because higher impedance headphones cause the available maximum output voltage rating to drop on the amplifier headphone amp." As long as the amp's power supply is operating correctly, voltage output will not drop. What does drop is Power. Power is the vector product of Voltage and Current. The direction of the Power vector of the amp relative to the Power vector of the load determine the optimum power rating that the amp will deliver. With AC (as in a music signal), Impedance is the slope of those vectors.

A simpler way to state it: "Higher impedance loads require higher voltages (and less current) to supply the same amount of power."

Why did this make fully differential amplifiers important for high impedance headphones? Because, modern solid-state amplifiers - and especially those operating on battery power - are limited in their voltage swing ability. Batteries themselves are limited in voltage compared to any line-connected power supply. Transistors are also often limited in the voltages that they can tolerate. This is what led Tyll Hertsens in the first place to develop fully differential amplifiers for headphones. It's even the same reason that Chu Moy made the CMoy, even though it wasn't a differential amp.

Note that a typical speaker is 8 ohms, but more often than not - 4 ohms. Whereas, most of the best headphone development in the 90s and into this century were in the 50 ohm to 600 ohm range. Even now, "low impedance" most often means 32 ohms: 4 or 8 times the impedance of a typical speaker. For headphones, a totally different amplifier topology was needed. It's still why today that specialized headphone amplifiers are better for headphones than something made for speakers.

Correct in terms of ability to reduce noise that is more likely on long running line level cables (like from a mic to some other input device, or from a pre-amp to an amp).

Correct, due to professional equipment mostly having longer line level cables (as discussed above). Speaker and headphone output cables are not as susceptible to noise as are line level cables, although there are other reasons (besides noise) for having a high quality speaker/headphone output cable.

It's not really "line-level" that causes the most issues - it's lower signal microphone cables. The typical gain on a microphone pre-amplifier is 30-60dB, in the same region as a magnetic phono cartridge - 45dB on average. When you factor in that most music signals vary around 30-50 dB (more like 30dB with most music), any noise in this gain range will affect the entire music signal.

As for noise itself, I already stated the fact that a differential amp cancels out common mode distortion. That effect happens whether you use balanced connections or not. In summary, there are S/N benefits for a balanced headphone cable, whether or not it is connected to a differential amp and there are S/N benefits for a fully differential amplifier, whether or not it uses balanced connectors.

As buke9 pointed out, a fully differential amp is typically an advantage with power-hungry, low impedance headphones (planars). IMHO, that has more to do with increased slew rate* along with lower output impedance on the amp, rather than increased voltage swing. If it was increased voltage swing, then tube amps would have no difficulty in powering low-impedance power-hungry planars ... but they seem to have trouble doing that.


* Slew rate is also doubled with a fully differential amplifier circuit. Slew rate can be thought of as how quickly the amplifier can drag race with voltage - as in, how fast can it deliver a high-voltage peak from a "standing start."

 

[Mark200]

Not really. As long as the headphone cable has two conductors for ground, separating them into a 4-pin plug (like XLR) will provide an audible benefit in S/N.

The improvement in S/N ratio of using balanced cables (instead of single-ended cable) on a single-ended amp is dwarfed by the improvement of using a fully balanced amp, with balanced inputs, and balanced cables to the headphone. This is evidenced by the specifications I posted above for the Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amp above.

Your claim that the improvement in S/N ration using balanced cables on a SE amp is audible, and I don't agree that it is always true (or even usually true) that the difference is audible. It depends on a lot of factors, such as cable quality, length, possible interference with other electrical signals, etc.

I agree that most of your other comments are a "nit" unless one is audio/electrical engineer, rather than just an audiophile trying to make some basic decisions about equipment and cables.

 

[Thomasr]

... the improvement of using a fully balanced amp, with balanced inputs, and balanced cables to the headphone.

Assuming a balanced amp (in my case the SMSL HO200) and balanced headphones (Monolith M1570) currently running single-ended ...

• how much of the potential improvement would come from using balanced cables between amp and headphones?
• how much would come from feeding balanced inputs into the amp?

 

[It Hz]

I would imagine most of the power output argument between a balanced and unbalanced system with the regard to headphones is probably a moot point. Never heard a set of headphones that couldn't make your ears bleed at high or even moderate volume settings.

 

[Mark200]

Assuming a balanced amp (in my case the SMSL HO200) and balanced headphones (Monolith M1570) currently running single-ended ...

• how much of the potential improvement would come from using balanced cables between amp and headphones?
• how much would come from feeding balanced inputs into the amp?

I am not sure how much benefit the balanced headphone cables would be compared to SE cable. But this assumes you have an adapter that converts the balanced output to the SE cable.

Likewise, I believe that you must use balanced inputs to get the full benefit of using the balanced circuits in the amp, but again not sure if you can just use a RCA to balanced input adapter on an RCA (SE) input cable. If your DAC supports balanced outputs, then it is definitely worth it to get a balanced cable between DAC and AMP.

 

[Thomasr]

If your DAC supports balanced outputs

It does not.

Right now I'm running:
Aiyima T10 (RCA outputs) ----> (RCA inputs) SMSL HO200 (6.5mm jack) ----> Monolith M1570

For the price of a new balanced headphone cable, I could be running:
Aiyima T10 (RCA outputs) ----> (RCA inputs) SMSL HO200 (4.4mm pentacon jack) ----> Monolith M1570

But I'd have to spend $$$ on a brand new DAC to go fully balanced:
SMSL DO200 (XLR outputs) ----> (XLR inputs) SMSL HO200 (4.4mm pentacon jack) ----> Monolith M1570

The responses in this thread so far have me thinking that taking the first above step is probably worth it. The M1570 doesn't have particularly high impedance or particularly low sensitivity, but it does have some pretty massive planar drivers and I can see how the power bump from differential amplification would be beneficial.

I'm less convinced that the second step is worthwhile, but I'm open to convincing.

 

[castleofargh]

The improvement in S/N ratio of using balanced cables (instead of single-ended cable) on a single-ended amp is dwarfed by the improvement of using a fully balanced amp, with balanced inputs, and balanced cables to the headphone. This is evidenced by the specifications I posted above for the Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amp above.

Your claim that the improvement in S/N ration using balanced cables on a SE amp is audible, and I don't agree that it is always true (or even usually true) that the difference is audible. It depends on a lot of factors, such as cable quality, length, possible interference with other electrical signals, etc.

I agree that most of your other comments are a "nit" unless one is audio/electrical engineer, rather than just an audiophile trying to make some basic decisions about equipment and cables.

One amp is one amp. There could just as well be more noise with a balanced amp design(more components, more gain). And of course a given single ended amp could very well have lower noise(or disto) than a particular balanced amp(or vice versa!). Obviously we'd then be more concerned by other sources of noise, but the end result is by no mean set in stone because an amplifier is balanced. There is a fairly popular article on the Benchmark website not shining a pleasant light over balanced designs for headphones. So it's not like there is a definitive concensus that balanced= more better.
I feel like those discussions about balanced vs SE are driven by and toward oversimplifications. The early responses were cautious and explained things pretty well. I was quite impressed(mad love to the guys who know stuff and still come helping others in this section). I think people should learn to respect caution and not try to jump on any simple looking generalization just because it's convenient. We all like to have answers, but simple answers and correct answers are rarely the same thing when about complex systems.


Of course, as was suggested by @baskingshark in the early posts, if an amplifier has both outputs, it's obvious to me that the engineer designed a balanced amp. He just added the single ended output as a service because he could do that with little extra efforts and cost. For such amps I personally would use the balanced solution, because otherwise why did I even bother getting that particular amp and paying more for extra parts I had no use for? It's not about performance anymore but about logic IMO.

I go balanced for my speakers and of course for my microphones where it makes a world of difference and you usually don't have a choice really. I never had any such drama with headphones used single-handedly so I just don't bother, and I keep my money to buy "Pim's"(Jaffa cake? I don't know what's the American equivalent). I can quit whenever I want, but I never will! That much I do know.

 

[Mark200]

One amp is one amp. There could just as well be more noise with a balanced amp design(more components, more gain). And of course a given single ended amp could very well have lower noise(or disto) than a particular balanced amp(or vice versa!). Obviously we'd then be more concerned by other sources of noise, but the end result is by no mean set in stone because an amplifier is balanced. There is a fairly popular article on the Benchmark website not shining a pleasant light over balanced designs for headphones. So it's not like there is a definitive concensus that balanced= more better.
I feel like those discussions about balanced vs SE are driven by and toward oversimplifications. The early responses were cautious and explained things pretty well. I was quite impressed(mad love to the guys who know stuff and still come helping others in this section). I think people should learn to respect caution and not try to jump on any simple looking generalization just because it's convenient. We all like to have answers, but simple answers and correct answers are rarely the same thing when about complex systems.


Of course, as was suggested by @baskingshark in the early posts, if an amplifier has both outputs, it's obvious to me that the engineer designed a balanced amp. He just added the single ended output as a service because he could do that with little extra efforts and cost. For such amps I personally would use the balanced solution, because otherwise why did I even bother getting that particular amp and paying more for extra parts I had no use for? It's not about performance anymore but about logic IMO.

I go balanced for my speakers and of course for my microphones where it makes a world of difference and you usually don't have a choice really. I never had any such drama with headphones used single-handedly so I just don't bother, and I keep my money to buy "Pim's"(Jaffa cake? I don't know what's the American equivalent). I can quit whenever I want, but I never will! That much I do know.

I am not making any claims about what is audible or not audible with regard to the difference in specs between using balanced versus and SE inputs/outputs. I merely posted the specifications of the balanced amp that I use, that shows the difference between the two in terms of power output, distortion, noise, etc.

 

[Mark200]

It does not.

Right now I'm running:
Aiyima T10 (RCA outputs) ----> (RCA inputs) SMSL HO200 (6.5mm jack) ----> Monolith M1570

For the price of a new balanced headphone cable, I could be running:
Aiyima T10 (RCA outputs) ----> (RCA inputs) SMSL HO200 (4.4mm pentacon jack) ----> Monolith M1570

But I'd have to spend $$$ on a brand new DAC to go fully balanced:
SMSL DO200 (XLR outputs) ----> (XLR inputs) SMSL HO200 (4.4mm pentacon jack) ----> Monolith M1570

The responses in this thread so far have me thinking that taking the first above step is probably worth it. The M1570 doesn't have particularly high impedance or particularly low sensitivity, but it does have some pretty massive planar drivers and I can see how the power bump from differential amplification would be beneficial.

I'm less convinced that the second step is worthwhile, but I'm open to convincing.

You might be able get the amp to operate in balanced mode simply by using an RCA to balanced (XLR) connector from your DAC to your amp such as this:
https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-Stereo-Audio-Connection-Microphone/dp/B083R4DL5N/?th=1
However, I am not an expert on this subject. These shielded RCA cables might be slightly more noisy (probably not audible) than if you had a balanced output on your DAC, but I believe that your amp will at least operate in balance mode.

Likewise, on your headphone output, you could use something like this to go from XLR to SE headphone cable adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Single-Crystal-Upgrade-Balanced-Adapter/dp/B09GLTJ4VZ

 

[Thomasr]

You might be able get the amp to operate in balanced mode simply by using an RCA to balanced (XLR) connector from your DAC to your amp such as this:
https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-Stereo-Audio-Connection-Microphone/dp/B083R4DL5N/?th=1
However, I am not an expert on this subject. These shielded RCA cables might be slightly more noisy (probably not audible) than if you had a balanced output on your DAC, but I believe that your amp will at least operate in balance mode.

I want to make sure I'm correctly interpreting what you're telling me...

A headphone amplifier like the HO200 will not operate in balanced mode from RCA (i.e. single-ended) input?

*edit*
Maybe I'm not even clear on the definition of "operate in balanced mode" ... my working definiton thus far has been "capable of taking any input signal, and then generating a differential (balanced) signal for consumption by the headphones via 4.4mm pentacon or XLR output jacks"

 

[Mark200]

I want to make sure I'm correctly interpreting what you're telling me...

A headphone amplifier like the HO200 will not operate in balanced mode from RCA (i.e. single-ended) input?

*edit*
Maybe I'm not even clear on the definition of "operate in balanced mode" ... my working definiton thus far has been "capable of taking any input signal, and then generating a differential (balanced) signal for consumption by the headphones via 4.4mm pentacon or XLR output jacks"

I am not an expert on this, but my understanding is that if you use the RCA inputs on the amp, it will only use half the circuits, which is why the power output in balanced mode is typically twice that of SE mode.

In theory, a balanced amp with RCA inputs connected "could" make the cable conversion from SE to balanced for you internal to the amp, but I don't know if most balanced amps do that.