[tomb]

The improvement in S/N ratio of using balanced cables (instead of single-ended cable) on a single-ended amp is dwarfed by the improvement of using a fully balanced amp, with balanced inputs, and balanced cables to the headphone. This is evidenced by the specifications I posted above for the Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amp above.

Your claim that the improvement in S/N ration using balanced cables on a SE amp is audible, and I don't agree that it is always true (or even usually true) that the difference is audible. It depends on a lot of factors, such as cable quality, length, possible interference with other electrical signals, etc.

I agree that most of your other comments are a "nit" unless one is audio/electrical engineer, rather than just an audiophile trying to make some basic decisions about equipment and cables.

Of course it's not "always true." You can literally say that about anything.

What I was trying to say - and this is also a disagreement - is that you can get most of the benefit of fully differential just in the amplifier circuit, without doing anything else.

lf we continue to argue, it's best that it's done on correct terms (which I also tried to explain): an amp is balanced if it simply has balanced connectors. Almost anyone (staying with the "not always true" theme) in the pro industry will consider an amp with balanced connectors as balanced, regardless of what is inside the amp itself. There are some mfrs in the headphone culture who will do that, too. Send me a PM asking who I'm talking about and you might be shocked. In fact - if you do some searching, you will find a rather lengthy and contentious thread about what makes an amp "balanced," right here on Head-Fi - and it's the connectors, that's all. However, an amp can only be fully differential if the signals are split into their + and - components with respect to the analog signal ground, amplified separately, and included with balanced connections for the source and the load.

Yeah, the specs are better in differential topology rather than single-ended. That's because of the doubling of the voltage swing (more power) and the cancellation of common mode distortion inherent in a differential circuit. The doubling of voltage swing may or may not be needed for a particular load and it's not necessary to use a differential circuit to achieve sufficient voltage swing. The deductive conclusion to that is that an increase in power doesn't necessarily mean an increase in quality. I think we can all agree with that. A corollary to that is that you don't need a "balanced" amp to increase voltage swing.

The common mode distortion cancellation is different. It definitely results in an increase in quality. However, balanced connectors on the outside are not absolutely necessary to reap the major benefits of that - it's in the amplification circuit itself.

You get common mode distortion cancellation in a 4-wire headphone cable (as with pro cable runs), but the signal is already amplified at that point (noise floor is much lower with respect to signal) and the lengths are short with headphones relative to pro cable runs. The primary benefit is in the superior grounding. We can argue whether that's audible, but it's certainly measurable.

 

[Mark200]

Of course it's not "always true." You can literally say that about anything.

What I was trying to say - and this is also a disagreement - is that you can get most of the benefit of fully differential just in the amplifier circuit, without doing anything else.

lf we continue to argue, it's best that it's done on correct terms (which I also tried to explain): an amp is balanced if it simply has balanced connectors. Almost anyone (staying with the "not always true" theme) in the pro industry will consider an amp with balanced connectors as balanced, regardless of what is inside the amp itself. There are some mfrs in the headphone culture who will do that, too. Send me a PM asking who I'm talking about and you might be shocked. In fact - if you do some searching, you will find a rather lengthy and contentious thread about what makes an amp "balanced," right here on Head-Fi - and it's the connectors, that's all. However, an amp can only be fully differential if the signals are split into their + and - components with respect to the analog signal ground, amplified separately, and included with balanced connections for the source and the load.

Yeah, the specs are better in differential topology rather than single-ended. That's because of the doubling of the voltage swing (more power) and the cancellation of common mode distortion inherent in a differential circuit. The doubling of voltage swing may or may not be needed for a particular load and it's not necessary to use a differential circuit to achieve sufficient voltage swing. The deductive conclusion to that is that an increase in power doesn't necessarily mean an increase in quality. I think we can all agree with that. A corollary to that is that you don't need a "balanced" amp to increase voltage swing.

The common mode distortion cancellation is different. It definitely results in an increase in quality. However, balanced connectors on the outside are not absolutely necessary to reap the major benefits of that - it's in the amplification circuit itself.

You get common mode distortion cancellation in a 4-wire headphone cable (as with pro cable runs), but the signal is already amplified at that point (noise floor is much lower with respect to signal) and the lengths are short with headphones relative to pro cable runs. The primary benefit is in the superior grounding. We can argue whether that's audible, but it's certainly measurable.

I am not arguing with anything you said, so I don't know where you got that idea. I was asked a question about whether the amp will operated in balanced (differential) mode if the input RCA connectors are used (instead of XLR input), and I said I didn't think so. If it operated in balanced mode all the time, regardless of the input connection, then I don't understand why the specs would be different for SE and balanced on that particular amp (as well as my Schiit Magnius).

As far as whether the amp needs to use the balanced output headphone jack (4.4mm) to operate in balanced mode, I am less sure about that.

 

[ADUHF]

You might be able get the amp to operate in balanced mode simply by using an RCA to balanced (XLR) connector from your DAC to your amp such as this:
https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-Stereo-Audio-Connection-Microphone/dp/B083R4DL5N/?th=1
However, I am not an expert on this subject. These shielded RCA cables might be slightly more noisy (probably not audible) than if you had a balanced output on your DAC, but I believe that your amp will at least operate in balance mode.

Likewise, on your headphone output, you could use something like this to go from XLR to SE headphone cable adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Single-Crystal-Upgrade-Balanced-Adapter/dp/B09GLTJ4VZ

I would avoid solutions like the above. Going balanced to unbalanced is not as simple as dropping or adding one pin or connector on a cable.

If you want to go balanced all the way, then I'd get gear that supports it directly rather than messing with adapters. Good transformers/converters, that will do the job correctly, will probably run you upwards of $200. So you're probably better off just getting the balanced gear to begin with.

If your headphones don't have balanced cables, then I would not bother using either a balanced amp or interconnects. Imo, it would be a waste of money, in most situations. These are just my opinions though.

Imo, it pays to get gear that plays nice together from the get go. So that's were I'd try to put more of my effort. YMMV though.

 

[tomb]

I am not arguing with anything you said, so I don't know where you got that idea. I was asked a question about whether the amp will operated in balanced (differential) mode if the input RCA connectors are used (instead of XLR input), and I said I didn't think so. If it operated in balanced mode all the time, regardless of the input connection, then I don't understand why the specs would be different for SE and balanced on that particular amp (as well as my Schiit Magnius).

As far as whether the amp needs to use the balanced output headphone jack (4.4mm) to operate in balanced mode, I am less sure about that.

Argue was too strong a description and that was my fault.

I explained why the specs are different and noted that's not a guarantee of a quality increase. More power doesn't mean better quality, nor does it take differential ("balanced") circuitry to achieve that power increase. Distortion is definitely better, but I explained that, too, and "balanced" connectors are not necessary for it - the circuit does it itself.

I'm through with this, because I keep repeating myself and no one cares.

EDIT: As evidence, the post above above just repeated the fallacy I've tried to put straight. You will get common mode distortion cancellation just with the differential circuit in an amplifier. So yeah, if you just have single-ended headphone and RCA cabling and all things being equal with the amplifier, but you have a choice between single-ended vs. differential ("balanced" if said incorrectly), then the differential mode will be better because it will have inherently lower distortion. It doesn't matter whether the cables are single-ended or balanced. That distortion will be lower.

Conversely, you will have benefit just from using a 4-wire XLR connection with a headphone, whether the amplifier is differential or not. That's from the improved grounding.

If you put both together and all things being equal, will it be better still? Maybe, but not necessarily compared to equal distortion and voltage swing amps (whether differential or not).

 

[Thomasr]

I'm through with this, because I keep repeating myself and no one cares.

I care. I'm the OP and I'm learning a ton.

 

[Mark200]

Argue was too strong a description and that was my fault.

I explained why the specs are different and noted that's not a guarantee of a quality increase. More power doesn't mean better quality, nor does it take differential ("balanced") circuitry to achieve that power increase. Distortion is definitely better, but I explained that, too, and "balanced" connectors are not necessary for it - the circuit does it itself.

I'm through with this, because I keep repeating myself and no one cares.

EDIT: As evidence, the post above above just repeated the fallacy I've tried to put straight. You will get common mode distortion cancellation just with the differential circuit in an amplifier. So yeah, if you just have single-ended headphone and RCA cabling and all things being equal with the amplifier, but you have a choice between single-ended vs. differential ("balanced" if said incorrectly), then the differential mode will be better because it will have inherently lower distortion. It doesn't matter whether the cables are single-ended or balanced. That distortion will be lower.

Conversely, you will have benefit just from using a 4-wire XLR connection with a headphone, whether the amplifier is differential or not. That's from the improved grounding.

If you put both together and all things being equal, will it be better still? Maybe, but not necessarily compared to equal distortion and voltage swing amps (whether differential or not).

I agree that more power or even lower distortion may not be an audible improvement. But the OP has the specs (balanced vs SE) and he can decide that for himself. I was just trying to help him figure out how to get the amp to run in balanced mode with the least amount of additional cost (and if possible not having to purchase a new DAC with balanced output). I was not telling him one way or the other how important that would be.

 

[Mark200]

I care. I'm the OP and I'm learning a ton.

To update one my previous posts, I found a test of a balanced headphone amp (I don't recall the brand/model) that only required that the headphone output cable be balanced in order for the amp to run in balanced mode (with about twice the power). In other words, that particular amp could use RCA inputs from the DAC RCA outputs and a balanced headphone cable and the amp would run in balanced mode according to the person who did the testing/review. Also, (for that particular amp) if a balanced cable was run from the DAC to the amp, but the headphone cable was TRS 1/4" plug (unbalanced), the amp would not run in balanced mode (or at least would only output half the power of balanced mode and have more distortion).

I suspect that not all amps are designed the same way as to how they handle this. So I would try to find out from the manufacturer of your amp what is needed to run in balanced mode, then decide whether the cost is worth it based on your current equipment.

 

[TyTB]

You won't.
The use of the term "balanced" is a permanent source of confusion.

A balanced connection as common in the pro-world is a 3 wire connection using a 3 pin XLR or a TRS jack.
It is used to connect DAC's, amps, active speakers, etc. at line level.
The 3 wires carry a hot, a cold (the inverse of the hot) and a ground.
At the receiver there is a differential amp comparing the hot and the cold and removing all common noise.
In a studio environment with tons of gear and long cable runs, balanced is a must.
At home you might wonder if you really need it.
If you don't have noise issues using RCA, you might as well stick to the RCA.

A "balanced" connection in the headphone world means something completely different.
It is a 4 wire connection, L+/L- and R+/R- between the amp and the headphone.
Nothing "balanced" about this symmetrical connection but as L and R no longer have a common ground, it allow for amplifier topologies with a floating ground like indeed a balanced amp. That is why this double single ended connection is called "balanced" in the headphone world. It is simply 2 times a single ended connection just like connecting speakers to an amp.
In general, as they are using 2 amps per channel instead of 1.
- more power
- more distortion (the sum of both amps) but fortunately today's amps have an extremely low distortion hence it might simply be not audible
- higher impedance but again doubling a very low impedance might be inaudible.

Focus in on the comments that talked about GROUND. That's the primary benefit of balanced connections.



The real key is in the highlighted text that Roseval wrote. Every time someone in the headphone world says, "balanced," they really mean differential. A differential amp uses two truly separate amplifiers per channel, for a total of 4 amplifiers for a stereo signal. Each channel is split into its differential components, amplified separately, then combined. If your music string is truly differential from source to driver, then the final connection of the differential components never occurs until arriving at the driver. If not, then somewhere there are not differential components and the music string is not "pure" differential.

In the "Pro world," as Roseval explains, "balanced" is a term used for the connections and cabling between components. There is a noted mfr in the headphone world, who will claim to his dying breath that his equipment is "balanced," simply because it uses balanced connections. If it's an amplifier, it may very well be single-ended on the inside, have balanced connections on the input and output and this mfr (who shall go nameless) will call the entire amplifier balanced.

That is what makes the "balanced" discussion confusing in the headphone world. I guess we can blame Tyll Hertsens for some of this, because he originated the use of fully differential amplifiers for headphone use and called them "balanced." I think it was easier to market his amps that way and the term stuck. However, it's proper to call the amplifier "fully differential," instead.

It's notable that fully differential circuitry with separately grounded outputs in an amplifier can give you most of the benefit of fully differential, whether the entire amp is "pure" differential or not. The real reason is that common mode distortion is cancelled in fully differential circuitry. Common mode distortion occurs in the active parts of a circuit and through interference, among other things. Reducing this noise has a very real effect in headphone listening because the signals are so small and the resolution of detail is so great. I believe this is the primary reason for fully differential amps "sounding better" with headphones.

In fact, build an amp that's totally differential on the inside, use single-ended inputs and outputs, but with balanced connectors (to get the grounding benefit), and you have 99.99% of the benefit of so-called "pure," fully differential operation. In the case of tube amplifiers, this is really what you want to do, because it's not the safest thing to do to connect to fully differential, high-voltage outputs with the traditional means of DC-blocking.

The improvement in S/N ratio of using balanced cables (instead of single-ended cable) on a single-ended amp is dwarfed by the improvement of using a fully balanced amp, with balanced inputs, and balanced cables to the headphone. This is evidenced by the specifications I posted above for the Schiit Magnius balanced headphone amp above.

Your claim that the improvement in S/N ration using balanced cables on a SE amp is audible, and I don't agree that it is always true (or even usually true) that the difference is audible. It depends on a lot of factors, such as cable quality, length, possible interference with other electrical signals, etc.

I agree that most of your other comments are a "nit" unless one is audio/electrical engineer, rather than just an audiophile trying to make some basic decisions about equipment and cables.

Hello everyone.

I don't mean to Necropost, but I came across this thread when I found myself wondering the exact same thing as OP, and your responses have all been very helpful. I have tried my best to read through the entire thread and all of your comments, but I was hoping I could ask you a more pointed question.

My understanding, based on Roseval and Tomb's great posts, is that the term "Balanced" is fraught with confusion, because of the differences in how the word is used in the professional audio world, and the consumer audiophile world. In the former, it's about cables, inverted signals, and noise cancellation. In the latter, it's about amplification architecture -- specifically, a wholistic amplification architecture, where the DAC, Amp, Cables, AND headphones all have to be built in a balanced way, to actually reap any benefits.

This is the limit of my understanding, though, so I want to ask you whether a specific amp and headphone pairing would be a fully balanced system or not.

I'm looking at getting the Sennheiser HD800s, and the Schiit Audio Jotunheim 2 Amp, with a DAC card.

https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-1

Does this combination of headphones + dac + amp equal a fully balanced system? I personally see two possible problem-points:

1) The Sennheiser's "Balanced" cable is a 4mm jack, which, if I understand correctly, is not ACTUALLY a true, balanced cable. ONLY XLR is. However, there are aftermarket XLR cables for the Senn's that I can buy, or I can mod my own XLR cables.

2) Even if the Jotunheim's amp architecture is truly fully balanced, what about the DAC? I have the option to buy a "True Multibit" DAC card, or a ES9028 DAC. I've also been trying to read up on what the heck a Multibit DAC is, and it seems like it's just Schiit's name for a much older, resistor-ladder-based DAC architecture, which has since been developped to compete with modern transistor DAC's, but might just be a case of snake oil? IDK. In any case, would either of these DAC options be balanced, too?

For roughly the same money (actually, a bit less), I could instead go with the Midgard Balanced Amp, and the Modius DAC... would THESE be a fully-balanced setup?

I am very confused. Would appreciate any help you all can offer. Thank you!

 

[OnlySoMany]

It depends on the dac, amp, and also the cables.

If the dac or amp is not truly balanced despite having xlr in, you may not fully realize the difference. If it is truly a balanced setup, then yes, you should hear a more pronounced sound.

Also, cable quality makes a huge difference the higher end you go. More revealing components need nicer cables (interconnects, power, etc) to sound their best.

I'm a very big chord fan, everything I've owned from them has been very good.

 

[Roseval]

1) The Sennheiser's "Balanced" cable is a 4mm jack, which, if I understand correctly, is not ACTUALLY a true, balanced cable. ONLY XLR is. However, there are aftermarket XLR cables for the Senn's that I can buy, or I can mod my own XLR cables.

The 800s comes with a TRS and a TRRS (Pentagonn). The Pentaconn allows a 2x2 connection. If the amp offers a 4 pin XLR, you can replace the Pentaconn or use an adapter.
I had the 800 that comes with a audiophile style cable. Long, heavy, stiff. When it broke I replaced it by a Hart Cable. They use mogami cable, light and flexible. You can get it terminated with a mini XLR. This allows you to couple it to all kind of interlinks: https://hartaudiocables.com/collections/custom-cables/products/custom-multi-kits

Great improvement in comfort compared with the original cable.

 

[TyTB]

The 800s comes with a TRS and a TRRS (Pentagonn). The Pentaconn allows a 2x2 connection. If the amp offers a 4 pin XLR, you can replace the Pentaconn or use an adapter.
I had the 800 that comes with a audiophile style cable. Long, heavy, stiff. When it broke I replaced it by a Hart Cable. They use mogami cable, light and flexible. You can get it terminated with a mini XLR. This allows you to couple it to all kind of interlinks: https://hartaudiocables.com/collections/custom-cables/products/custom-multi-kits

Great improvement in comfort compared with the original cable.

Okay, so the Pentaconn is a true, balanced cable, which can be converted to the XLR connection format with a simple adapter. Thank you.

Any thoughts on whether running the HD800s in this way, with the Jotunheim 2, would be a fully-balanced system, from start to finish?

 

[Whazzzup]

ok ill take a shot at this. being a chord dac user lets start there. its a single ended dac with xlr outputs as well as rca. now for purists, which i long abandoned, one should stick with rca out and remain se. or there's additional analogue component that converts se to balanced through xlr out. now the pre amp, i use fully balanced amps with true topography. they offer rca but this is not balanced. XLR is fully balanced, so i can listen via 4 pin xlr in balanced mode, via my se dac. so sure again purists would like a balanced dac, non chord, and go into a balanced amp. but whatever.
i think the additional power doubling and the esoteric concept that right and left should never touch, cool concept.

there is no adapter to run a se hp cable to balanced

 

[Roseval]

The Jotunheim 2 can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-jotunheim-2-review-dac-headphone-amp.21232/
Wouldn't go for the multibit DAC, way to noisy.
It has analog balanced in and outputs at line level and a "balanced" headphone out.

Personally I'm not in need of a headphone amp. I rather have a DAC with the usual digital inputs (coax, optical, USB) and balanced line out (my power amps have balanced inputs). Headphone out is a must have for me. Don't care if it is TRS as long as the power is sufficient. In essence a pre-amp with digital inputs.

Some examples:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...version-2-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.13379/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m500-mkii-review-dac-hp-amp.29468/

 

[TyTB]

The Jotunheim 2 can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-jotunheim-2-review-dac-headphone-amp.21232/
Wouldn't go for the multibit DAC, way to noisy.
It has analog balanced in and outputs at line level and a "balanced" headphone out.

Personally I'm not in need of a headphone amp. I rather have a DAC with the usual digital inputs (coax, optical, USB) and balanced line out (my power amps have balanced inputs). Headphone out is a must have for me. Don't care if it is TRS as long as the power is sufficient. In essence a pre-amp with digital inputs.

Some examples:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...version-2-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.13379/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m500-mkii-review-dac-hp-amp.29468/

Thank you, I actually had read that audio science review yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything online talking about the newer, ES9029 DAC chip that they offer. The reviews are always blasting the old solid state chip or the multibit.

 

[BS5711]

there is no adapter to run a se hp cable to balanced

Since folks are talking about differential audio, common mode rejection, balanced and single ended it seems pertinent to correct this point.

With the 4.4mm Pentaconn you very definitely can run a single ended cable to a 4.4mm balanced amplifier via an adapter.

In fact, not that there is much point but for the technical discussion, you can wire a cable with a 4.4mm Pentaconn termination to plug into a balanced amplifier but to operate single ended.

An adapter to go from a 3.5mm to 4.4mm so you can use a 3.5mm cable with a balanced 4.4mm amplifier will use the positive signal from the left and right channels and will run the two ground wires from the single ended 3.5mm to the grounding sleeve of the 4.4mm creating a single ended circuit. The negative signal of each channel are left unconnected, there is nothing shorting as is often stated.

That is also in effect generally how a portable amplifier that has balanced architecture and four amplifiers (L and R + and -) but also has a single ended 3.5mm jack works. There isn’t normally a completely separate single ended set up with two specific amplifiers for the single ended output, it is fed from the + amplifiers of the L and R channels.

ddhifi and ifi audio make 3.5mm to 4.4mm adapters that do exactly the above. I have both, checked both with a continuity tester and used both perfectly safely and effectively in a couple of different applications.

https://ifi-audio.com/products/headphone-adapter-3-5mm-to-4-4mm/