[scorlibrian]

Are we normalizing paying 1000$ for products put on the market unfinished (abandonned) because features are not easy to implements?
I'm a project director in mobile dev, half the work is the CI and QA. What we're seeing here is something that need to be called out.

No. At least I'm not. I'm unhappy with my decision to purchase the EM5 and I've been very vocal about that earlier in this thread.

To clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling out something that's wrong with the software. I encourage it. It's the only way to make sure our voice is heard.

However, there are different levels to this.

• Features that are broken. These are features that are in the software that aren't working as intended. These are things that absolutely should be fixed and should be of the highest priority.
• Features that we expect. These are features that are the bare minimum of what we expect from the software. Otherwise, the software wouldn't function properly or as advertised. These are also things that should be relatively high on the priority list of what should be worked on.
• Features that we want. There's a really blurry line between the last category and this one, and a lot of people confuse features that we want with features that we expect. These are features that Shanling hasn't made any claims about for their product and we've only requested the features because we see value in them. I still think it's good to request these features, but I wouldn't expect Shanling to prioritize them. And it's unfair to call a product "unfinished" because these features aren't implemented.

So once again, I'm definitely in favour of calling out software issues and request new features. However, people really need to understand which category their feedback falls into when posting it.

So what am I doing about it? Well, there's not much I can do. I can continue to post feature requests about it on the internet if I want, but that's been a waste of time so far. I'll tell you what I'm NOT doing though. I'm not buying another Shanling product again. Sound is great, but the lack of software support is a real dealbreaker for me and I feel like I could cobble together a better system out of multiple components driven by a raspberry pi rather than buy another AIO and be beholden to their software team.

However, the discussion in this thread was moving away from "this product is bad" or "this product doesn't do what I want" and moving towards "The Shanling community rep should force the devs to work on the feature I want" and "the Shanling software devs are lazy/inept/stupid", and I wanted to move away from that.

 

[Inazumaluke]

Alright, I've been quite critical of the EM5 software in the past, and I still am disappointed in it. So much that it's been actual months since my EM5 has last seen use.
That being said, I'm seeing some misconceptions pop up in here that I want to address.
Context: I'm a software developer (Obviously not one that works at Shanling).
The Shanling account here is likely run by their community representative, which is a department that may or may not be part of the Customer Service department ...

Thank you for your balanced pov.

Just to be clear.
My first post in this thread started "I'm a reasonably happy owner of a Shanling EM5"...
Now... I have nothing against our kind Shanling account and I don't like to argue. Really, I don't like.
I'm just pointing out that my Shanling EM5's software works really bad, just like a computer designed for Windows XP trying to work with Windows 11... And, basically, the device never worked as it should.
Not a streamer, just an average good sounding, good looking, amp-dac.
For the price, not competitive. A product which doesn't keep what it promised.
And, apparently, I'm not the only one to complain.
The latest firmware update, after one year from the previous release, didn't change the situation.
Our kind account is doing his best to contain the tide. I appreciate.
Unfortunately, in doing that:
- makes questions, instead of giving answers;
- supplies excuses, instead of delivering solutions;
- transfers (so he says) our complains to "the software team", and "the software team" does nothing;
- the most common answer provided is "Our team is working on this"...
But this product is already more than 2 years old on the market, and "the team" should have been working before;
... And ultimately he said "Our customer service team provides them with all the feedback we get here, but that's where our power ends".
Which, to me, sounds very much like: "I did my job, my company doesn't, what else can I do?"
Well, my dear @scorlibrian, you will understand, this is the best trigger to get a unsatisfied customer pissed off.
And that's what I ultimately became.

I enclose a link to my review of the Shanling EM5 few days after the purchase on the vendor's site, the title was:
Not for nervous people
... Now I got nervous.

In the circumstances, the only question I'm still ready to answer to our kind Shanling account is
"would you like to return your device and get your money back?".
Guess what would be my reply?

Thanks for the patience of reading mate.
And sorry if I have been rude with our @Shanling account (nothing personal).

 

[scorlibrian]

makes questions, instead of giving answers

... Sure? From what I've seen, the answers they've given seemed relatively reasonable, and sometimes provoked follow-up questions. I only really saw people question the answers when the answers are not what they wanted.

supplies excuses, instead of delivering solutions

What if there's no current solution? If people are complaining about something like the lack of gapless playback, they can't just magically turn on gapless playback if it's not implemented. Sure, it's a feature a lot of people want and that's been requested in here a lot, but what "solution" are you expecting here?

transfers (so he says) our complains to "the software team", and "the software team" does nothing

Do you think they're not forwarding our feedback? I have no reason to believe they aren't. Like I said in my previous post, the software team "doing nothing" is likely because the feedback you provided isn't being prioritized for whatever reason. Also, I don't think it's fair to say that the software team is "doing nothing". They just aren't specifically addressing our complaints. They've got a lot of products that are receiving software updates, so I highly doubt we have a dedicated team of software engineers at our beck and call that are just waiting to work on the stuff we want them to.

the most common answer provided is "Our team is working on this"

Is this a bad thing? If I give feedback and the answer I get is "Our team is working on this", then I'm happy.

But this product is already more than 2 years old on the market, and "the team" should have been working before

Has there been a situation where they said "Our team is working on this" and they didn't deliver within a couple of patches? Not from what I remember (though I'm not going to search through 54 pages of history to find out). But my impression of "Our team is working on this" means it's actively being worked on and will be delivered soon. The other answer is "I've notified the software team", which means there's no guarantee that it's currently being worked on or will ever be worked on.

And ultimately he said "Our customer service team provides them with all the feedback we get here, but that's where our power ends".

Is that not the truth though? It's not a "pass the buck" situation. This is literally the situation. A lot of people have a misconception that because they complain about something to the community rep for a company, that community rep will then go and make the software team do the thing they want. What they've said is just the reality of their role within the company.

 

[Shanling]

@Shanling
The power of what, please?
Do you mean the power of the customer service dep't, or the power of Shanling Co.?
... Did you run out of good software engineers in your Country?
If something doesn't work, it should be changed.
We are not talking about sound, we are talking about software functionality, features and reliability.
Which is software is all about.
So, if the software systematically fails, than change the software, or the engineer!
As simple as that.
And this should be done before the clients change supplier.

By the way, you asked me what was wrong with the Amazon Music App in my EM5 and I replied. You didn't.
So, why did you ask?

We expect a good customer service gives replies, no excuses.
And from the company: no explanations, but solutions.

... And my Shanling EM5 is getting ever closer to my window.

Compliments!!!!

As company representatives, we are not able to dictate where the focus of software team should be focused and how it should be divided between devices. That's up to our chief of software team and main managers. They are included in the inner company conversations and the current state is up to their decisions.

There are many current and past devices of Shanling that are still receiving firmware updates, fixes for new or old issues and the addition of new features. It's unfortunate that some desired functions are missing, especially on EM line, and we can only hope that our software team will deliver them over time. They see how the competing devices are behaving and that they should keep up with them.

We got your report on the Amazon issue. We don't have such type of account at hand to test right away, so only could report it to software team for their check. We don't reply to every single post on the forums.

Stupid question : anyone here from China ?
I see you can register with Eddict but that requires a Mainland China phoneline.
What do you get if you register ?
I hope/think/assume you get access to services that make an ecosystem.
Maybe some of them are paid services.

It gives access to local music streaming service. That's all, no hidden features.

A nice way to make much more money would be :
- fire all the people in the software team (we do not know how many people work there but there must be several. I there is a "chief" there must be a team, right ? ANd since we're told they are super competent, they'll find another job quite easily) ;
- rely on third party software and work with competent free-lance developers and maybe get something like a licensing program with them ;
- hardware is brilliant, software would be no problem => good reports from customers => more units sold.

But who am I to judge ?

Regards.

Shanling was using the services of 3rd party software developer in the past. Management decided to build up our own software team in 2017 and they have been providing software for all our products since then.

 

[PenguinHeadphoner]

... Sure? From what I've seen, the answers they've given seemed relatively reasonable, and sometimes provoked follow-up questions. I only really saw people question the answers when the answers are not what they wanted.

What if there's no current solution? If people are complaining about something like the lack of gapless playback, they can't just magically turn on gapless playback if it's not implemented. Sure, it's a feature a lot of people want and that's been requested in here a lot, but what "solution" are you expecting here?

Do you think they're not forwarding our feedback? I have no reason to believe they aren't. Like I said in my previous post, the software team "doing nothing" is likely because the feedback you provided isn't being prioritized for whatever reason. Also, I don't think it's fair to say that the software team is "doing nothing". They just aren't specifically addressing our complaints. They've got a lot of products that are receiving software updates, so I highly doubt we have a dedicated team of software engineers at our beck and call that are just waiting to work on the stuff we want them to.

Is this a bad thing? If I give feedback and the answer I get is "Our team is working on this", then I'm happy.

Has there been a situation where they said "Our team is working on this" and they didn't deliver within a couple of patches? Not from what I remember (though I'm not going to search through 54 pages of history to find out). But my impression of "Our team is working on this" means it's actively being worked on and will be delivered soon. The other answer is "I've notified the software team", which means there's no guarantee that it's currently being worked on or will ever be worked on.

Is that not the truth though? It's not a "pass the buck" situation. This is literally the situation. A lot of people have a misconception that because they complain about something to the community rep for a company, that community rep will then go and make the software team do the thing they want. What they've said is just the reality of their role within the company.

Hi,

Ok.
Defend Shanling as you like.

You seem to consider it is normal for an audio company to release an audio device that does not support gapless playback.
I think that, if the tech to do it exists such a device should not even been released.
That makes the device unable to fulfill it's purpose.
You're happy with that.
I am not.

So let's agree to disagree.

Regards

 

[PenguinHeadphoner]

As company representatives, we are not able to dictate where the focus of software team should be focused and how it should be divided between devices. That's up to our chief of software team and main managers. They are included in the inner company conversations and the current state is up to their decisions.

There are many current and past devices of Shanling that are still receiving firmware updates, fixes for new or old issues and the addition of new features. It's unfortunate that some desired functions are missing, especially on EM line, and we can only hope that our software team will deliver them over time. They see how the competing devices are behaving and that they should keep up with them.

We got your report on the Amazon issue. We don't have such type of account at hand to test right away, so only could report it to software team for their check. We don't reply to every single post on the forums.



It gives access to local music streaming service. That's all, no hidden features.



Shanling was using the services of 3rd party software developer in the past. Management decided to build up our own software team in 2017 and they have been providing software for all our products since then.

Hi,

Perfectly understood.
Of course nothing personal against you.

You say that for some obscure reasons it has been decided to close your Android and forbid the customer to allow the installation of third-party software.
Let's say it's fine.

Here is a suggestion : you include third-party software on your side, like music services.

Why not include a third party sister like bubble UPnP yourself and let the user decide if he wants to use Eddict or if he wants to use BubbleUPnP ? You can test that before you release it. As an addition you can say that this skyward is provided with no support...

Would be a really nice decision and a way to calm down comments and not degrade the company's image any further.

Regards

 

[scorlibrian]

You seem to consider it is normal for an audio company to release an audio device that does not support gapless playback.

... That's your takeaway from all this? When did I suggest this at all? Was it when I used gapless playback as an example for a completely separate point I was trying to make? Or was it when I listed my feature wishlist and gapless playback wasn't one of them? Was it all of my previous posts where I was critical about the Shanling software, but I didn't specifically cite gapless playback as an example? Or was it some other thing I said that you took out of context?

Full disclosure, gapless playback wouldn't benefit me that much as I don't listen to many albums where gapless playback is required for its enjoyment. That doesn't mean I don't want them to support it or that I think it's alright for them not to support it.

(EDIT: I just did a quick web search for "gapless playback support" and there are many posts of people asking whether or not X audio player or X software supports gapless playback and companies have explicitly explain whether they support gapless playback or not. So it's not just a Shanling thing. I still think it's unacceptable, but it's hardly uncommon.)

You need to realize that while I'm still critical the Shanling software and Shanling as a company, I don't place blame on the software devs or on the community rep. People here were starting to do that, which is why I raised my voice.

Most of your comments on here are trying to petition Shanling to give you ways to bypass their software altogether, and not improve it. Are you surprised that Shanling as a company is not too keen on giving you ways to use software that isn't built for that device to control that device? Are you surprised that they want you to stay in their ecosystem for a relatively complicated piece of hardware? That's like being surprised that Apple doesn't want you to jailbreak their phones.

If you haven't figured it out by now, you and I have very similar opinions here. The main difference is where we're directing our negativity.

 

[PenguinHeadphoner]

Hi,

Think as you want.

Sorry, I do not think we share anything else than the fact that we consider Shanling's way of implementing things in their networked devices as not satisfactory.

You tend to give Shanling excuses for poor development.

I don't.
And your arguments do not convince me.

About gapless, as a reminder, here is what you wrote :
What if there's no current solution? If people are complaining about something like the lack of gapless playback, they can't just magically turn on gapless playback if it's not implemented. Sure, it's a feature a lot of people want and that's been requested in here a lot, but what "solution" are you expecting here?

And here is what I wrote :
You seem to consider it is normal for an audio company to release an audio device that does not support gapless playback.
I think that, if the tech to do it exists such a device should not even been released.

Just in case I have underlined the two relevant connections between our posts.
I assume you will now be able to make a link and not just give partial quotations...
Since you do not have the usage of gapless playback, maybe you are not aware that gapless playback exists since a long time.

Anyways, I must say that I don't give a s**t because I do not own the EM-5 anymore.
I returned it within 15 days after acquisition because it was too crippled to be kept.
And no, I will not waste my time asking for features or pointing out bugs : they will not be added or adressed. I know that by now.

I wish you a pleasant and musical day, even with the EM-5.

 

[Inazumaluke]

@scorlibrian Your last clarification makes your point of view less equilibrated to my eyes. You are not only justifying the company's representative in the community, you are justifying a company's behavior which is not acceptable from any reasonable standpoint: selling things pretending they are innovative while they are not enough tested (bona fide or not) and make the consumer experience the flaws. The latter is a fact.

@Shanling I have already apologized for being rude and explicit, now I thank you for your last reply.
Unfortunately, the latter, once again, brought an excuse and not a solution - i.e. you (as a Shanling representative, not personally) provide an Amazon Music customized app, but you do not have an Amazon Prime account to test it... Good to know. Basically it would have been more or less the same if you said that you don't have a Spotify account to test Spotify.
Please note, the problem is not "that some desired functions are missing". The problem is that some functions of the product sold are not working.
The problem is not your software team. The problem is not your assistance on the forum. The problem is the Shanling's commercial policy to sell "not enough tested / incomplete products" and "not disclosing the products' limits and flaws". Something that in my Country would easily bring either to a class action and/or the retirement of the product from the market.
I would be curios to know how many EM5 customers would buy again a product from Shanling.

May I ask you to launch a survey?

I hope this clarify my position.

Best regards

​

 

[Shanling]

@Shanling I have already apologized for being rude and explicit, now I thank you for your last reply.
Unfortunately, the latter, once again, brought an excuse and not a solution - i.e. you (as a Shanling representative, not personally) provide an Amazon Music customized app, but you do not have an Amazon Prime account to test it... Good to know. Basically it would have been more or less the same if you said that you don't have a Spotify account to test Spotify.
Please note, the problem is not "that some desired functions are missing". The problem is that some functions of the product sold are not working.

We have a standard Amazon Music account(I believe that's the Unlimited range, the norm for Hi-Fi users it seems) and we see no issue with the service, neither we received such feedback from other users.

You mentioned you have some lower grade of account and I'm unfortunately not familiar with Amazon's services enough to know what exactly that means.

 

[Inazumaluke]

We have a standard Amazon Music account(I believe that's the Unlimited range, the norm for Hi-Fi users it seems) and we see no issue with the service, neither we received such feedback from other users.

The "norm" is that Amazon Music app works perfectly with my Prime subscription on any device I have (MacBook, Ipad, PC, Samsung Phone etc.), except Shanling EM5.

You mentioned you have some lower grade of account and I'm unfortunately not familiar with Amazon's services enough to know what exactly that means.

Detail
"Amazon Music provides Prime members with access to 100 million songs ad-free, the largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts, and thousands of playlists and Stations, included with Prime at no additional cost." (cit.)

I'm an "HiFi user" who listens Apple Music, but if he fancies to listen another service, he doesn't want to change device because of the limits of Shanling. I also listen Spotify which provides a lossy service. Weird enough that Shanling allows low-fi Spotify free subscribers to listen to it.

@Shanling is certainly not entitled to decide what kind of service I should subscribe and pay to make their device properly working.

If any other member of the Community is able to play Amazon Prime music on EM5, I'll be happy to listen. With the pristine Amazon app release, I had no problem.

 

[Shanling]

The "norm" is that Amazon Music app works perfectly with my Prime subscription on any device I have (MacBook, Ipad, PC, Samsung Phone etc.), except Shanling EM5.


Detail
"Amazon Music provides Prime members with access to 100 million songs ad-free, the largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts, and thousands of playlists and Stations, included with Prime at no additional cost." (cit.)

I'm an "HiFi user" who listens Apple Music, but if he fancies to listen another service, he doesn't want to change device because of the limits of Shanling. I also listen Spotify which provides a lossy service. Weird enough that Shanling allows low-fi Spotify free subscribers to listen to it.

@Shanling is certainly not entitled to decide what kind of service I should subscribe and pay to make their device properly working.

If any other member of the Community is able to play Amazon Prime music on EM5, I'll be happy to listen. With the pristine Amazon app release, I had no problem.

We do not set any limits on the app, these are official apps from Android app store, no alterations are done to them.

Your case was reported to software team, they will try to check what's different on the Prime membership compared to standard Amazon Music Unlimited and what might be the cause of this.

Have you performed the factory reset after firmware update? Can you try cleaning the app data and logging in again?

 

[AlexGrap]

Hi everyone, guys! The only thing that irritated me about my EM5 was the silence for a couple of seconds when switching tracks (I’m currently using this device as a DAC and a Headphone Amplifier). At the same time, the song progress slider moves to the right, despite this silence. After the update to v1.6, I've found the setting, that corrects this shortcoming. New songs play immediately when switching.

Thanx to @Shanling for this fix! I plan to use playback via MicroSD and an external hard drive in the future, so I hope that over time @Shanling will correct all the shortcomings with library scanning, folder display, etc.
I still believe in @Shanling that they will not want to give up their positions at the market. The hardware base is too good to give up on small corrections and lose the company's prestige because of this. Although EM5 not a young device by modern standards, but it is in the public eye. I am judging solely from a rational point of view, so I repeat, I believe that the software will be improved.

 

[Inazumaluke]

(...)
1) Your case was reported to software team, they will try to check what's different on the Prime membership compared to standard Amazon Music Unlimited and what might be the cause of this.
2) Have you performed the factory reset after firmware update? Can you try cleaning the app data and logging in again?

1) Thank you.
2) Yes I did, as reported above in one of my previous posts.
Rgds

 

[ostapo]

Will report it to our Polish distributor, they were the one doing translation. We haven't received any notes from them about any adjustments so far.



Just to be clear, all these drives were able to be fully scanned before updating to V1.6?
When this happens, it's normally an issue with some specific file and its formatting.

Are you able to access all files through folder browsing without library scan?

Have you performed factory reset after firmware update as noted in our update instructions?



Noted and reported to software team.



Just update, you can anytime downgrade back to older firmware if you will encounter any issue. We so far saw positive response to this update from majority of users.

Hello! Happy New Year!
Please tell how soon the bugfix for the new firmware is planned?