[robo24]

I just got my 181 in today and it's a nice upgrade from the UK tube I was using. I might just grab this one if it's a step up from that

It's not.

 

[Xerosnake90]

It's not.

What makes you say that?

 

[robo24]

What makes you say that?

The fact that it looks and sounds exactly the same and Apos refuses to say anything about the design or who makes it. Many NOS 6SN7s for less will sound better and certainly more different than buying another PSVane with a different base and lettering. Check out the 6SN7 thread for all kind of options. If you want to spend $200 for a 6SN7 look for a Mullard ECC33, RCA or CBS 5692, or possibly even a Melz 1578. Doesn't make sense to spend it on a tube you already own. I learned the hard way.

 

[Xerosnake90]

The fact that it looks and sounds exactly the same and Apos refuses to say anything about the design or who makes it. Many NOS 6SN7s for less will sound better and certainly more different than buying another PSVane with a different base and lettering. Check out the 6SN7 thread for all kind of options. If you want to spend $200 for a 6SN7 look for a Mullard ECC33, RCA or CBS 5692, or possibly even a Melz 1578. Doesn't make sense to spend it on a tube you already own. I learned the hard way.

Thanks, not the first time I've heard that so good to know!

 

[Apos Audio]

Hey all,

This is Kunal from Apos and I want to clarify some things for everyone here. Apologies for my lateness. We’ve been inundated with requests and feedback through Support so it has taken some time to get back to you.

Couple points upfront - we do not intend to hide anything about our manufacturing process, and Apos Ray Tubes are not just a simple rebranding exercise.

Our goal with Apos Ray Tubes is to produce high quality, trusted, new tubes that fit the sound profile we think the community would like. Beyond this, we also aim for the community to receive an easy pre-sales and post-sales experience with these tubes. To achieve these goals, we have selected stable suppliers and put forward high requirements for them, so our cost is higher than that of the same type of electronic tubes. A lot of the work done at our end and costs incurred are due to the labor-intensive methods we employ to get tubes that meet our standards. I am providing more information into this process below.

As some of you have already mentioned, the current Apos Ray Tubes are made in China (this is also stated on the packaging). Please note that this doesn’t mean all Ray Tubes will be manufactured in China. We have plans to bring many different types of tubes from different origination countries/factories like China, Japan, Czech Republic, etc. Community members have identified the factory we are working with for the 6SN7 Reserve tubes on this thread, but please note that the quality of the tubes is not just a function of the factory that manufactures them, but also the work that is done before and after the manufacturing is completed.

All Apos Ray Tubes begin with ideation carried out by our team. We form our decisions through community feedback and internal deliberations about what we think would make a great sounding tube as audio professionals. This helps us define what tube to create next and what sound signature it should have. Next steps include manufacturing with the factory of our choosing to produce the product to our specifications—this is similar to any other brand deciding what OEM factory to use in the manufacturing of their product.

After the tubes are manufactured, all tubes undergo the standard quality control and grading after manufacturing to make sure they fall within the specifications and the sound profile that we are looking for in each tube model. This is important for achieving high consistency and quality between all the tubes regardless of matching. The grading standards for vacuum tubes are similar to those of computer chips, where chips from the same production batch may be classified or "binned" into different grades like Intel’s i3, i5, i7, i9 based on varying performance parameters. The production of vacuum tubes follows a similar approach, with tubes suitable for HIFI audio products being selected as the best from each batch of tubes. Specifically for the Ray Tubes, we’ve been even more stringent and we typically have a 90-95% rejection rate for the tubes in each batch. Essentially we are selecting the “i9s” of each batch which, while it increases costs, ensures that our tubes stand out in quality and performance, particularly for high-fidelity audio, and match what we set out to achieve with the product. The remaining tubes are used in other applications or disposed of.

For the matching process itself, after the Ray tubes have gone through a break-in period, objective metrics are measured for each tube and then paired together for closeness with the goal of minimizing any channel and sound quality imbalances within each matched pair. The closest matched pairs are then packaged together.

Specifically, the metrics are split into four categories. One, static parameters such as anode current (Ia) or grid bias voltage (Vg) are tested and matched to ensure the tubes operate similarly under identical conditions. Two, dynamic parameters such as transconductance (gm), which affects how good a tube is at amplifying, and plate resistance (Ra), which affects the quality of the output, are matched. Third, gain is matched; to ensure a balanced sound between left and right channels, you want tubes with similar gain levels. As part of the matching process, each pair undergoes a subjective listening test to ensure they audibly have no issues but also to test for the fourth category, distortion characteristics. This is hard to quantify but important for high-fidelity sound as you want the tubes to produce similar types and amounts of distortion, so there is no odd difference in sound quality between channels.

The team has spent a lot of time working through this process, and I hope this helps answer questions on this thread.

Thanks!

@robo24 @Xerosnake90 @Jose in Jersey @g0ldl10n

 

[Xerosnake90]

Hey all,

This is Kunal from Apos and I want to clarify some things for everyone here. Apologies for my lateness. We’ve been inundated with requests and feedback through Support so it has taken some time to get back to you.

Couple points upfront - we do not intend to hide anything about our manufacturing process, and Apos Ray Tubes are not just a simple rebranding exercise.

Our goal with Apos Ray Tubes is to produce high quality, trusted, new tubes that fit the sound profile we think the community would like. Beyond this, we also aim for the community to receive an easy pre-sales and post-sales experience with these tubes. To achieve these goals, we have selected stable suppliers and put forward high requirements for them, so our cost is higher than that of the same type of electronic tubes. A lot of the work done at our end and costs incurred are due to the labor-intensive methods we employ to get tubes that meet our standards. I am providing more information into this process below.

As some of you have already mentioned, the current Apos Ray Tubes are made in China (this is also stated on the packaging). Please note that this doesn’t mean all Ray Tubes will be manufactured in China. We have plans to bring many different types of tubes from different origination countries/factories like China, Japan, Czech Republic, etc. Community members have identified the factory we are working with for the 6SN7 Reserve tubes on this thread, but please note that the quality of the tubes is not just a function of the factory that manufactures them, but also the work that is done before and after the manufacturing is completed.

All Apos Ray Tubes begin with ideation carried out by our team. We form our decisions through community feedback and internal deliberations about what we think would make a great sounding tube as audio professionals. This helps us define what tube to create next and what sound signature it should have. Next steps include manufacturing with the factory of our choosing to produce the product to our specifications—this is similar to any other brand deciding what OEM factory to use in the manufacturing of their product.

After the tubes are manufactured, all tubes undergo the standard quality control and grading after manufacturing to make sure they fall within the specifications and the sound profile that we are looking for in each tube model. This is important for achieving high consistency and quality between all the tubes regardless of matching. The grading standards for vacuum tubes are similar to those of computer chips, where chips from the same production batch may be classified or "binned" into different grades like Intel’s i3, i5, i7, i9 based on varying performance parameters. The production of vacuum tubes follows a similar approach, with tubes suitable for HIFI audio products being selected as the best from each batch of tubes. Specifically for the Ray Tubes, we’ve been even more stringent and we typically have a 90-95% rejection rate for the tubes in each batch. Essentially we are selecting the “i9s” of each batch which, while it increases costs, ensures that our tubes stand out in quality and performance, particularly for high-fidelity audio, and match what we set out to achieve with the product. The remaining tubes are used in other applications or disposed of.

For the matching process itself, after the Ray tubes have gone through a break-in period, objective metrics are measured for each tube and then paired together for closeness with the goal of minimizing any channel and sound quality imbalances within each matched pair. The closest matched pairs are then packaged together.

Specifically, the metrics are split into four categories. One, static parameters such as anode current (Ia) or grid bias voltage (Vg) are tested and matched to ensure the tubes operate similarly under identical conditions. Two, dynamic parameters such as transconductance (gm), which affects how good a tube is at amplifying, and plate resistance (Ra), which affects the quality of the output, are matched. Third, gain is matched; to ensure a balanced sound between left and right channels, you want tubes with similar gain levels. As part of the matching process, each pair undergoes a subjective listening test to ensure they audibly have no issues but also to test for the fourth category, distortion characteristics. This is hard to quantify but important for high-fidelity sound as you want the tubes to produce similar types and amounts of distortion, so there is no odd difference in sound quality between channels.

The team has spent a lot of time working through this process, and I hope this helps answer questions on this thread.

Thanks!

@robo24 @Xerosnake90 @Jose in Jersey @g0ldl10n

Excellent response. I suppose the big thing that we keep hearing and want to know about is the similarity between the Psvane UK6sn7 and CV181 T Mkii

While I haven't heard the difference myself it's not the first time I've heard that the Reserve is the same tube but for a higher cost. I'd wager some form of an official response would be difficult but may provide some insight

 

[michael2v]

It’s an upgraded PSVane 181.

Seems more likely the Psvane 6SN7-UK given the price point and appearance?

 

[Promee]

Hey all,

This is Kunal from Apos and I want to clarify some things for everyone here. Apologies for my lateness. We’ve been inundated with requests and feedback through Support so it has taken some time to get back to you.

Couple points upfront - we do not intend to hide anything about our manufacturing process, and Apos Ray Tubes are not just a simple rebranding exercise.

Our goal with Apos Ray Tubes is to produce high quality, trusted, new tubes that fit the sound profile we think the community would like. Beyond this, we also aim for the community to receive an easy pre-sales and post-sales experience with these tubes. To achieve these goals, we have selected stable suppliers and put forward high requirements for them, so our cost is higher than that of the same type of electronic tubes. A lot of the work done at our end and costs incurred are due to the labor-intensive methods we employ to get tubes that meet our standards. I am providing more information into this process below.

As some of you have already mentioned, the current Apos Ray Tubes are made in China (this is also stated on the packaging). Please note that this doesn’t mean all Ray Tubes will be manufactured in China. We have plans to bring many different types of tubes from different origination countries/factories like China, Japan, Czech Republic, etc. Community members have identified the factory we are working with for the 6SN7 Reserve tubes on this thread, but please note that the quality of the tubes is not just a function of the factory that manufactures them, but also the work that is done before and after the manufacturing is completed.

All Apos Ray Tubes begin with ideation carried out by our team. We form our decisions through community feedback and internal deliberations about what we think would make a great sounding tube as audio professionals. This helps us define what tube to create next and what sound signature it should have. Next steps include manufacturing with the factory of our choosing to produce the product to our specifications—this is similar to any other brand deciding what OEM factory to use in the manufacturing of their product.

After the tubes are manufactured, all tubes undergo the standard quality control and grading after manufacturing to make sure they fall within the specifications and the sound profile that we are looking for in each tube model. This is important for achieving high consistency and quality between all the tubes regardless of matching. The grading standards for vacuum tubes are similar to those of computer chips, where chips from the same production batch may be classified or "binned" into different grades like Intel’s i3, i5, i7, i9 based on varying performance parameters. The production of vacuum tubes follows a similar approach, with tubes suitable for HIFI audio products being selected as the best from each batch of tubes. Specifically for the Ray Tubes, we’ve been even more stringent and we typically have a 90-95% rejection rate for the tubes in each batch. Essentially we are selecting the “i9s” of each batch which, while it increases costs, ensures that our tubes stand out in quality and performance, particularly for high-fidelity audio, and match what we set out to achieve with the product. The remaining tubes are used in other applications or disposed of.

For the matching process itself, after the Ray tubes have gone through a break-in period, objective metrics are measured for each tube and then paired together for closeness with the goal of minimizing any channel and sound quality imbalances within each matched pair. The closest matched pairs are then packaged together.

Specifically, the metrics are split into four categories. One, static parameters such as anode current (Ia) or grid bias voltage (Vg) are tested and matched to ensure the tubes operate similarly under identical conditions. Two, dynamic parameters such as transconductance (gm), which affects how good a tube is at amplifying, and plate resistance (Ra), which affects the quality of the output, are matched. Third, gain is matched; to ensure a balanced sound between left and right channels, you want tubes with similar gain levels. As part of the matching process, each pair undergoes a subjective listening test to ensure they audibly have no issues but also to test for the fourth category, distortion characteristics. This is hard to quantify but important for high-fidelity sound as you want the tubes to produce similar types and amounts of distortion, so there is no odd difference in sound quality between channels.

The team has spent a lot of time working through this process, and I hope this helps answer questions on this thread.

Thanks!

@robo24 @Xerosnake90 @Jose in Jersey @g0ldl10n

This is great news! Transparency is always a great policy. Haters gonna hate anyway, and people who are making purchasing decisions will always appreciate more information. Apos is clearly pushing hard to build an excellent reputation as a brand, not just a reseller, and I really appreciate the outreach to the community.

There are few things more frustrating in this hobby than knowing you like a tube and ordering an additional pair of them, only to find out that QC was no good and they have a major issue like static / hum or even worse one blows out immediately. It makes perfect sense to work with a factory that knows how to make tubes rather than reinventing the wheel.

Also, to the price question, it’s always a personal question to say how much a product is worth to an individual. I for one believe that an excellent pair of new production tubes can absolutely be worth $300. I’m not convinced of the same about high end power cords for example, but others’ opinions can and should vary. The price relative to the rejection rate makes sense in this case - if you’re binning the top performers, of course there will be diminishing returns, and for many people, taking one step down on the ladder will land them at a very comfortable price / performance ratio. If the rejection rate is typically say 50% for the bare minimum grade of hi-fi acceptable tube and that tube costs $20, then think of it as paying $10 for the tube you get and $10 for the one that has to get tossed. If the rejection rate is 90% for a higher end tube, then you’re paying $10 for the one you get and $10 each for the 9 that get thrown away and suddenly you have a $100 tube, but you are going to be 99.9% sure that it is going to be high quality instead of rolling the dice on a $20 tube. Also, if you buy 5 of the $20 tubes, you might get lucky and get one that sounds as good as the $100, but you might not. If you can’t tell much difference between them, no worries at all, save that $$$ for a new pair of headphones, I hear that the Tungstens are supposed to be pretty neat

Okay, rant over. I’m grabbing a pair of these to try out. I love high-end new production Chinese 6SN7s, so I’m pretty sure I’ll like them, and I have plenty of the Psvanes, as well as Shuguang and LinLai around to compare with, so I’ll try to clarify a bit for those of you who like this style and want to see where these fit in the landscape!

 

[ThanatosVI]

This is great news! Transparency is always a great policy. Haters gonna hate anyway, and people who are making purchasing decisions will always appreciate more information. Apos is clearly pushing hard to build an excellent reputation as a brand, not just a reseller, and I really appreciate the outreach to the community.

There are few things more frustrating in this hobby than knowing you like a tube and ordering an additional pair of them, only to find out that QC was no good and they have a major issue like static / hum or even worse one blows out immediately. It makes perfect sense to work with a factory that knows how to make tubes rather than reinventing the wheel.

Also, to the price question, it’s always a personal question to say how much a product is worth to an individual. I for one believe that an excellent pair of new production tubes can absolutely be worth $300. I’m not convinced of the same about high end power cords for example, but others’ opinions can and should vary. The price relative to the rejection rate makes sense in this case - if you’re binning the top performers, of course there will be diminishing returns, and for many people, taking one step down on the ladder will land them at a very comfortable price / performance ratio. If the rejection rate is typically say 50% for the bare minimum grade of hi-fi acceptable tube and that tube costs $20, then think of it as paying $10 for the tube you get and $10 for the one that has to get tossed. If the rejection rate is 90% for a higher end tube, then you’re paying $10 for the one you get and $10 each for the 9 that get thrown away and suddenly you have a $100 tube, but you are going to be 99.9% sure that it is going to be high quality instead of rolling the dice on a $20 tube. Also, if you buy 5 of the $20 tubes, you might get lucky and get one that sounds as good as the $100, but you might not. If you can’t tell much difference between them, no worries at all, save that $$$ for a new pair of headphones, I hear that the Tungstens are supposed to be pretty neat

Okay, rant over. I’m grabbing a pair of these to try out. I love high-end new production Chinese 6SN7s, so I’m pretty sure I’ll like them, and I have plenty of the Psvanes, as well as Shuguang and LinLai around to compare with, so I’ll try to clarify a bit for those of you who like this style and want to see where these fit in the landscape!

I'm sure most would like to see a comparison with the PSvane CV-181-T-MII if you have them.

 

[robo24]

I'm sure most would like to see a comparison with the PSvane CV-181-T-MII if you have them.

Yeah given the marketing word salad that was the opposite of transparancy, the way I read "not just a rebranding" is that they are a rebranding with additional testing and matching. They haven't claimed they designed the tube nor even made any changes to the internals of the PSvane CV-181-T-MII.

Why talk about $300 tube pairs when these are currently $479?

If this was like AudioNote and their 300Bs made by PSVane that would be something. At least they're up front about their tube design and that they farmed out manufacturing to PSVane. I have no problem with that any more than the 6XX being made to the same specs as the 650 but in a different factory in a different country. With adequate QC they should and do sound the same.

Okay, rant over. I’m grabbing a pair of these to try out. I love high-end new production Chinese 6SN7s, so I’m pretty sure I’ll like them, and I have plenty of the Psvanes, as well as Shuguang and LinLai around to compare with, so I’ll try to clarify a bit for those of you who like this style and want to see where these fit in the landscape!

DM as I'd be happy to sell you mine for $300.

Someone currently has a Mullard ECC33 matched pair for $500 listed here which makes paying $479 for a $175 PSVane rebrand more than a bit silly.

 

[Promee]

DM as I'd be happy to sell you mine for $300.

Thanks for the offer. Already ordered though - I had a gift card to Apos, and I also want to make sure I have the warranty just in case. I’m sure there will be a buyer for them soon at that price relative to the list price of these. I’m curious about the overall tube buying experience from Apos. I’ve been pretty pleased with their Flow cables, and their marketing, including the message above, seems to indicate they’re looking into other options for manufacturing, so I want to see what they’re all about and support their efforts to bring us new tubes.

We really need a modern source of high quality 6922 and 5998 / 6AS7G, and after seeing what is happening to the prices of NOS tubes in those lines, I feel very strongly about supporting a reliable source for new production tubes, even if it feels a bit overpriced. In situations like this, I think being expensive is just a reflection of how small our community / niche is. If this venture is successful, maybe we’ll see more new entrants and have more options for new tubes. Even if you end up liking the NOS options better, having new tubes available like this will only help to drive down the price, as people like me will gravitate toward new production if high quality options are available, but if they’re not there, we’ll just be in that same market driving up the prices on the NOS tubes.

I loved the sound, but have given up on Psvane after buying for several pairs of CV-181 mk II from different sites that turned out to be noisy, and I had a couple of their KT-88s blow out within 1-2 months. I still have a few around that sound good and can be used for comparison, but I don’t plan to buy any more for the foreseeable future. If I can get the sound that I loved or better a slightly upgraded version from a more reliable supply chain, I’m 100% in. It’s kind of like how it was buying the Psvanes from Grant Fidelity - they charged more, but they screened them carefully and backed them, but they even gave up on carrying Psvane, and there was a great drought of new production 6SN7s that met my exacting standards. I like the LinLai ones as well, but unfortunately I have a couple of amps where the super chonky globes of LinLai Elite, special edition, and treasures won’t fit, so I’m excited to see that Psvane CV-181 form factor here in a high-end tube.

Also, they have the Select series for much lower prices, so something for everyone. I think we all know that we get diminishing returns as we move up the stack, but spending silly money on tubes can sometimes make my audio OCD shut up for up to a few days at a time!

 

[robo24]

Thanks for the offer. Already ordered though - I had a gift card to Apos, and I also want to make sure I have the warranty just in case. I’m sure there will be a buyer for them soon at that price relative to the list price of these. I’m curious about the overall tube buying experience from Apos. I’ve been pretty pleased with their Flow cables, and their marketing, including the message above, seems to indicate they’re looking into other options for manufacturing, so I want to see what they’re all about and support their efforts to bring us new tubes.

We really need a modern source of high quality 6922 and 5998 / 6AS7G, and after seeing what is happening to the prices of NOS tubes in those lines, I feel very strongly about supporting a reliable source for new production tubes, even if it feels a bit overpriced. In situations like this, I think being expensive is just a reflection of how small our community / niche is. If this venture is successful, maybe we’ll see more new entrants and have more options for new tubes. Even if you end up liking the NOS options better, having new tubes available like this will only help to drive down the price, as people like me will gravitate toward new production if high quality options are available, but if they’re not there, we’ll just be in that same market driving up the prices on the NOS tubes.

I loved the sound, but have given up on Psvane after buying for several pairs of CV-181 mk II from different sites that turned out to be noisy, and I had a couple of their KT-88s blow out within 1-2 months. I still have a few around that sound good and can be used for comparison, but I don’t plan to buy any more for the foreseeable future. If I can get the sound that I loved or better a slightly upgraded version from a more reliable supply chain, I’m 100% in. It’s kind of like how it was buying the Psvanes from Grant Fidelity - they charged more, but they screened them carefully and backed them, but they even gave up on carrying Psvane, and there was a great drought of new production 6SN7s that met my exacting standards. I like the LinLai ones as well, but unfortunately I have a couple of amps where the super chonky globes of LinLai Elite, special edition, and treasures won’t fit, so I’m excited to see that Psvane CV-181 form factor here in a high-end tube.

Also, they have the Select series for much lower prices, so something for everyone. I think we all know that we get diminishing returns as we move up the stack, but spending silly money on tubes can sometimes make my audio OCD shut up for up to a few days at a time!

My Apos are definitely noise-free as were the PSVane branded version which came with my Envy, but maybe Feliks was only accepting ones meeting certain measurements as one would hope for $7k+!

 

[Roasty]

 

[Promee]

Beauty!! Looking forward to your thoughts!

 

[Roasty]

Beauty!! Looking forward to your thoughts!

so i popped it into the vm1a and on first listen it was rather bright sounding and my heart dropped LOL... but to be fair, i'm coming from a KenRad smoked glass 6sn7. about 2-3 hrs in, the top end tamed a bit, but still waiting for the low end to come. i guess it needs a while longer to settle down, and i didnt get much listening done before bedtime. i do know the ca1a/vm1a combo with the KR 6sn7 has superb low end, so am hoping the Apos Reserve will deliver the goods soon/eventually!