[yolosauce]

WE is even better after burn-in. The Susvara sounds buttery smooth and explosively dynamic at the same time.

 

[walterboss]

Now I've had the Envy for long enough to form impressions, I thought I'd run through some TUBE IMPRESSIONS so far...

My chain is in my sig, and these impressions have been consistent across all my headphones. However, real critical listening all done on the Susvara.

For consistency, I kept my Brimar CV1988 as driver tubes for all impressions.

THE STOCK – Electro-Harmonix 300b
The stock tubes that came with my Standard Envy. The amp itself was such an overpowering step up from my XIAUDIO stack – and also my first tube amp – there was always going to be a big change in sound. I had tried to temper expectations but when I first listened to the track I always listen to first with new headphones or amps, I honestly got a bit emotional. I knew I was done with amp searching. The sound was so huge and euphonic, yet with the detail and imaging I thought I would sacrifice coming from the XIAUDIO.

How wrong was I...The whole experience the first few days was pretty euphoric as I went through as many songs as I could, across all genres. Everything sounded the best it ever had.

I had bought Western Electric 300b in anticipation of the arrival of the amp, so they were ready to go from day one. I swore I would wait a week before changing.

Of course, it took me all of three hours before I caved and swapped out the EH300b for the WE300b. And the immediate reaction I had was quite cool. My brain was still adjusting to the tube sound, I simply couldn't place the differences between tubes.

Now I've had more time, and done some proper A/B, the differences are definitely much starker.

From Electro-Harmonix 300b > Western Electric 300b
Firstly, I think it's good news that people who don't want to buy 300b upgrades needn't worry about some kind of poor man's Envy type of sound. Is there an improvement with the WE? Undoubtedly. Is it night and day? To some people's ears, but not mine. Blind test, I could tell. Confident about that. But after a week, I would still be very very happy listening to the EH.

What's different? First thing that stood out to me was vocals. EH sound recessed. Muddier. Especially male vocals. Soundstage shrunk in, and imaging and instrument placement was less crisp. Less dynamic too. Bass with the WE was mighty. And yet so clean. Treble cleaner too.

That said, I really have to emphasise, by anyone's impressions this is surely still a very impressive listen.

However...I realised after a few days of just the EH then swapping again to WE, the sound I was enjoying was in spite of the tubes. The amp is that good.

With the WE, it all comes up about 25%. Which at this level is significant IMO.

I had also bought Elrogs anticipating a face-off with the WE. I knew I wouldn't get a 25% uptick going to Elrog. But what could I expect?

From Western Electric 300b > Elrog ER300b
Previous thread impressions on this are largely my experience too. Elrogs sound cleaner in the treble, not quite as brittle as WE are in the upper treble.

Imaging and soundstage are better. Vocals are the biggest improvement for me. More present and yet more intimate.

Dynamics are...changeable for me depending on the track. I vacillate on this one tbh. If you're a fan of punchy rock dynamics, neither will disappoint you.

I can understand why someone would prefer the WE. There is perhaps a shade for euphonic sound there. It's close. But for me the Elrog does everything WE does and adds some extra on top: soundstage height and width, instrument separation, imaging, and a nicer tonality for my preferences. Perhaps slightly less coloured than WE.

HOWEVER...

When I move to a track like Parabola by Tool, with Elrog, I've lost a bit of that magic the WE had. I can't quite place what it is, but it is similar to that change from solid-state to tube. The euphonic warmth. It's not at all thin. But the guitars have less body suddenly.

It's a reminder that choosing between those two tubes is really hard for me.

CONCLUSIONS
The reality is that only having the Elrogs since this morning, it's too soon to tell, but I had wanted to get my thoughts down on stock tubes versus 300b upgrades generally in case it helped someone.

I'm considering a DAC change from my Chord Dave to a Holo May, as I've recenly acquired some Empire Ears Odin IEMs along with a Cayin RU6 R2R DAC which has really opened my eyes to the impact of R2R, and I feel like it might be what the sound I'm looking for now.

I've been chasing technicalities for so long, I feel like what I'm trying to settle on now is tonality preference. And if I'm going to welcome a May into my chain, then I'd want to keep both WE and Elrog for now until that choice becomes a little clearer. Elrog might play nicer with the May's softer touch. But changing DAC is a whole thread discussion.

TLDR: WE or Elrog 300b upgrades are absolutely worth it for what they cost. I know we all have to decide to stop somewhere, but for me, having spent the money on the Envy, tube upgrades are value for money.

But if you don't want to upgrade tubes, you're still going to have a phenomenal amp that sounds beautiful.

 

[nfandi]

That's my afternoon sorted then Time for the WEs to take a seat on the bench!

How many years ago did you order those?

 

[walterboss]

How many years ago did you order those?

Do you ever post non snark?

 

[nfandi]

Do you ever post non snark?

I don’t know what you mean. I looked at the Elrog website and it says no more orders until July. I wondered when you were able to get them so I asked the question. If you think there’s a different meaning in my question …1) there is not …..2) that’s your problem.

 

[trollbearpig]

I don’t know what you mean. I looked at the Elrog website and it says no more orders until July. I wondered when you were able to get them so I asked the question. If you think there’s a different meaning in my question …1) there is not …..2) that’s your problem.

You asked how many years it was instead of how many months, which kind of over exaggerates how long it takes to get elrogs, so it comes off the wrong way. Maybe just a miscommunication issue and not meant to be sarcastic.

 

[nfandi]

You asked how many years it was instead of how many months, which kind of over exaggerates how long it takes to get elrogs, so it comes off the wrong way. Maybe just a miscommunication issue and not meant to be sarcastic.

Apologies for your interpretation. But how does one buy Elrogs these days if the order book has been closed for months? The backlog of demand suggests it will be a very long time before a new demand will be fulfilled and the longer the order book is closed the more the demand will build. And yes, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and is why I’m probably good (or bad) at it.

 

[turbofeet]

There's a pair of MOs here for almost a quarter of a million:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=elrog+300b

Good value?

 

[nfandi]

There's a pair of MOs here for almost a quarter of a million:

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=elrog+300b

Good value?

What’s the £/Yen exchange rate?

 

[turbofeet]

I think it's about 1500EUR or 1300GBP.

No idea of the quality of the source.

I love the MOs.

I would like to find some quality 300B socket savers if anyone has any recommendations?

I use the Woo ceramic ones for the 6SN7 slots and would love similar for the 300b Slots as I love the WEs as well.

 

[Leto Dal]

Now I've had the Envy for long enough to form impressions, I thought I'd run through some TUBE IMPRESSIONS so far...

My chain is in my sig, and these impressions have been consistent across all my headphones. However, real critical listening all done on the Susvara.

For consistency, I kept my Brimar CV1988 as driver tubes for all impressions.



THE STOCK – Electro-Harmonix 300b
The stock tubes that came with my Standard Envy. The amp itself was such an overpowering step up from my XIAUDIO stack – and also my first tube amp – there was always going to be a big change in sound. I had tried to temper expectations but when I first listened to the track I always listen to first with new headphones or amps, I honestly got a bit emotional. I knew I was done with amp searching. The sound was so huge and euphonic, yet with the detail and imaging I thought I would sacrifice coming from the XIAUDIO.

How wrong was I...The whole experience the first few days was pretty euphoric as I went through as many songs as I could, across all genres. Everything sounded the best it ever had.

I had bought Western Electric 300b in anticipation of the arrival of the amp, so they were ready to go from day one. I swore I would wait a week before changing.

Of course, it took me all of three hours before I caved and swapped out the EH300b for the WE300b. And the immediate reaction I had was quite cool. My brain was still adjusting to the tube sound, I simply couldn't place the differences between tubes.

Now I've had more time, and done some proper A/B, the differences are definitely much starker.

From Electro-Harmonix 300b > Western Electric 300b
Firstly, I think it's good news that people who don't want to buy 300b upgrades needn't worry about some kind of poor man's Envy type of sound. Is there an improvement with the WE? Undoubtedly. Is it night and day? To some people's ears, but not mine. Blind test, I could tell. Confident about that. But after a week, I would still be very very happy listening to the EH.

What's different? First thing that stood out to me was vocals. EH sound recessed. Muddier. Especially male vocals. Soundstage shrunk in, and imaging and instrument placement was less crisp. Less dynamic too. Bass with the WE was mighty. And yet so clean. Treble cleaner too.

That said, I really have to emphasise, by anyone's impressions this is surely still a very impressive listen.

However...I realised after a few days of just the EH then swapping again to WE, the sound I was enjoying was in spite of the tubes. The amp is that good.

With the WE, it all comes up about 25%. Which at this level is significant IMO.

I had also bought Elrogs anticipating a face-off with the WE. I knew I wouldn't get a 25% uptick going to Elrog. But what could I expect?

From Western Electric 300b > Elrog ER300b
Previous thread impressions on this are largely my experience too. Elrogs sound cleaner in the treble, not quite as brittle as WE are in the upper treble.

Imaging and soundstage are better. Vocals are the biggest improvement for me. More present and yet more intimate.

Dynamics are...changeable for me depending on the track. I vacillate on this one tbh. If you're a fan of punchy rock dynamics, neither will disappoint you.

I can understand why someone would prefer the WE. There is perhaps a shade for euphonic sound there. It's close. But for me the Elrog does everything WE does and adds some extra on top: soundstage height and width, instrument separation, imaging, and a nicer tonality for my preferences. Perhaps slightly less coloured than WE.

HOWEVER...

When I move to a track like Parabola by Tool, with Elrog, I've lost a bit of that magic the WE had. I can't quite place what it is, but it is similar to that change from solid-state to tube. The euphonic warmth. It's not at all thin. But the guitars have less body suddenly.

It's a reminder that choosing between those two tubes is really hard for me.

CONCLUSIONS
The reality is that only having the Elrogs since this morning, it's too soon to tell, but I had wanted to get my thoughts down on stock tubes versus 300b upgrades generally in case it helped someone.

I'm considering a DAC change from my Chord Dave to a Holo May, as I've recenly acquired some Empire Ears Odin IEMs along with a Cayin RU6 R2R DAC which has really opened my eyes to the impact of R2R, and I feel like it might be what the sound I'm looking for now.

I've been chasing technicalities for so long, I feel like what I'm trying to settle on now is tonality preference. And if I'm going to welcome a May into my chain, then I'd want to keep both WE and Elrog for now until that choice becomes a little clearer. Elrog might play nicer with the May's softer touch. But changing DAC is a whole thread discussion.

TLDR: WE or Elrog 300b upgrades are absolutely worth it for what they cost. I know we all have to decide to stop somewhere, but for me, having spent the money on the Envy, tube upgrades are value for money.

But if you don't want to upgrade tubes, you're still going to have a phenomenal amp that sounds beautiful.

Very interesting read thanks for the write up. Its intersting that in your perception Elrogs have a larger stage than WE, its was very obvious for me that WE sound not just much grander than Elrogs, but the stage becomes wider. Maybe it comes down to the playlist in the end, I can 100% second your impression of Parabola and Tool recordings in general though, stuff like Flood is just too trebly on Susvara and lacks a bit of the meatyness with Elrogs, while its absolutely mesmerizing with WE sounding "right" to me.

For me it was the euphonic tube nature, mid emphasis and the grandness of sound that made me chose WE over Elrogs in the end. Its a privelege owning both though, enjoy!

 

[jlbrach]

How does a CHORD DAVE work as a pre into Envy?

I have my dave connected to my envy...I set the envy volume to 12 o clock and control the volume via the dave...works great

 

[walterboss]

I don’t know what you mean. I looked at the Elrog website and it says no more orders until July. I wondered when you were able to get them so I asked the question. If you think there’s a different meaning in my question …1) there is not …..2) that’s your problem.

Your phrasing made it sound like you were pointing out the tubes were ancient and therefore deficient in some way. Anyway, apologies, I clearly misread your post and something's been lost in translation between us. My bad.

I bought them on Classifieds as indeed Thomas at Elrog told me orders wouldn't even be open for months as you say. You need to check daily basically and if some come up be quick.

If you read my impressions post I *might* end up selling mine, but it's a little early to say conclusively. Need to have them in my system for a full week rather than A/B back and forth as I have today. It's a slow process with tubes

Sorry again if I threw the toys out my pram last time.

 

[walterboss]

Very interesting read thanks for the write up. Its intersting that in your perception Elrogs have a larger stage than WE, its was very obvious for me that WE sound not just much grander than Elrogs, but the stage becomes wider. Maybe it comes down to the playlist in the end, I can 100% second your impression of Parabola and Tool recordings in general though, stuff like Flood is just too trebly on Susvara and lacks a bit of the meatyness with Elrogs, while its absolutely mesmerizing with WE sounding "right" to me.

For me it was the euphonic tube nature, mid emphasis and the grandness of sound that made me chose WE over Elrogs in the end. Its a privelege owning both though, enjoy!

I find it very hard to A/B tubes, and soundstage is the hardest thing for me to grasp. I never hear it with the specificity I read from others.

I'll be able to say more clearly after a full week in the amp. Reflecting on the music I heard earlier, my suspicion is that I'll stick with the WE, but I'm open minded about how it will go.

 

[incredulousity]

I’m thinking the pre-amp in the Bliss is a perfectly good starting point. You already have the Bliss so why not start there? If you did not have the Bliss and needed an active pre-amp then the Serene is supposed to be slightly better. But if you need a headphone amp that can also be a pre-amp the Bliss is probably better. However, both of these options have active gain stages and will add some ‘colour’ to the chain which might or might not be noticeable to you, or could even be better for you. The passive options have zero gain stages and therefore will be more ‘transparent’ in your chain. The Bliss is your zero cost option, the passive attenuators are relatively low cost, and the DAC with volume attenuation like the Bricasti M3 is a higher cost option. It’s not the end of the world to have such options/decisions, it’s part of why we enjoy this hobby.

I use Bliss as pre to Envy a lot. It sounds great, and does not color the sound at all. (May is DAC)

That said, Envy is to me very tolerant of hot input, either balanced or SE.