Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers
Aug 17, 2017 at 7:52 PM Post #13,306 of 23,494
You know how this game goes, Peter. We're all looking for that last little piece of the audio puzzle that delivers us to musical nirvana. Could be that magic pair of Hollands...or Germans...or that $1000 coax cable. Or just maybe that $2500 DAC. You just never know. It could even be a tube you didn't know your amp or DAC even TOOK !!! What was obscenely ridiculous even a couple months (days?) ago is suddenly just a common sense decision. Lmao, you gotta love this schiit.
I hear you

Why would anyone look for a $1000 coax cable?
Having said that Its actualy a usb cable im considering thats about $800 AUD

I was just thinking that maybe buying a wa5 would not have been that crazy cnsidering what ive put into my whole system. Mind you if i had i would have still bought pricey cables etc

It is crazy!!!!
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 9:19 AM Post #13,307 of 23,494
I think the seller noted the wrong line in the tester. 100% GM should be 12,500. Those tubes should have plenty of life left in them. Do not really know about audible differences between testing numbers, perhaps Ivan can jump in here?

Just to chime in as requested. All test results are bull unless you know what the point at which the tube tester takes measurement.
I will zoom out a bit and talk about measurements in general and average 100% and so on.

The general point for measuring a 6DJ8/6922 is Heater voltage(or filament voltage) Vf(Vh) = 6.3V (sometimes marked as Uh or Uf) , Plate voltage (Anode voltage) Va(Vp) or Ua(Up)=90V, Grid voltage = Vg or Ug = -1.2V for E88CC and -1.3V for ECC88

So now that we have this point tuple (Vf, Va, Vg) we can rummage through the specifications over here http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html a search of "CV2492" shows our equivalent E88CC specifications.
There are not any specific BRIMAR specs there but we can use the Philips ones to give us a rough estimate. The Brimar pair linked -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/222591787203 is from the late 60s so let's use the Philips (>1965) spec. On Page 10 of that PDF we can see averaged characteristics at Va = 90V, Vf = 6.3V . Here we can see that the 15mA vertical line is hitting the -Vg curve at ~ 1.2V and the S(S = Siemens = Gm = transconductance = slope) curve at around 12.5 mA/V and the Mu (Voltage gain) curve at 33. So there you have it , when the average Ia = 15mA, you have Va=90V, Gm = 12.5 mA/V, Vg = -1.2V and Mu = 33.

Using the specs in the way described you can derive averaged 100% for any tube characteristic at different points of measurement (Vf, Va, Vg). Now the tube sellers should in general provide these points of measurements they used in their listings however sometimes they do not for several reasons:

1) They outright lie (motherfrakers) because they know most people are looking for that phat juicy number of Ia = 15 mA (100%!!11!!oneneEleven!!), but without the point being specified it's meaningless! Why? Well let's take a look at that page in the specs as before the left chart is at Va=150V, now let's check our lovely Ia=15mA current characteristic, we work our way up the vertical line again and we see that Vg is between -3 and -3.1, but if we leave Vg unchanged (at -1.2V from before) and with so much juice going into the tube (150V) the current will go crazy high (more than 30mA maybe more for a healthy tube) . However... let's say that our tube still measures at 150V , -1.2V , Ia = 15mA this means this tube is far far far from the average 100% and that's where they get ya :)

2) Their tube tester is old and gimmicky, hard to use, hard to explain, hard to understand, you have some cards that say "ROTATE SELECTOR X to VALUE Y for TESTING TUBE Z", and "FOR TUBE Z 100% GM is 6500Mhmos". So this seems to be the case with your listing. If you take a look at here http://www.saegerradio.com/download...ok Model 533A-600A-605A Tube Testers V2.5.pdf you can see that for E88CC with the tester Hickok 533A you need to use the following settings:
Selectors: EV-7608-0 EV-2103-0
Bias: 27
Eng (English): 90
Press (Which button to use to test): P4
Gm scale = 6500 mhmos ( so you expect the 100%)

If we read the manual for that tester you can see that the selectors are using to configure what voltage is put on what pin of the tube.
There's not much I saw about Bias and English but we can assume that Bias 27 is equal to Vg=-2.7 V, and English Va= 90V on the plate (could be wrong but I can't find an explanation to these values and they resemble Grid Voltage and Plate voltage so much and the math kinda checks out :D ) . So at the time this tester was made we don't know what the charts were, perhaps at 90V/-1.2V the expected transconductance was 15 mA/V. But either way if we look at the values of Gm at that point we can see that when Vg = -2.7 V and Va=90V , 100% averaged Gm ~= 4.5 mA/V (4500 mhmos). So bottom line the tubes in question should be great as they measure above that. And even if 100% was 6.5mA/V the difference is negligible.

Cheers
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 3:57 PM Post #13,308 of 23,494
Just to chime in as requested. All test results are bull**** unless you know what the point at which the tube tester takes measurement.
I will zoom out a bit and talk about measurements in general and average 100% and so on.

The general point for measuring a 6DJ8/6922 is Heater voltage(or filament voltage) Vf(Vh) = 6.3V (sometimes marked as Uh or Uf) , Plate voltage (Anode voltage) Va(Vp) or Ua(Up)=90V, Grid voltage = Vg or Ug = -1.2V for E88CC and -1.3V for ECC88

So now that we have this point tuple (Vf, Va, Vg) we can rummage through the specifications over here http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html a search of "CV2492" shows our equivalent E88CC specifications.
There are not any specific BRIMAR specs there but we can use the Philips ones to give us a rough estimate. The Brimar pair linked -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/222591787203 is from the late 60s so let's use the Philips (>1965) spec. On Page 10 of that PDF we can see averaged characteristics at Va = 90V, Vf = 6.3V . Here we can see that the 15mA vertical line is hitting the -Vg curve at ~ 1.2V and the S(S = Siemens = Gm = transconductance = slope) curve at around 12.5 mA/V and the Mu (Voltage gain) curve at 33. So there you have it , when the average Ia = 15mA, you have Va=90V, Gm = 12.5 mA/V, Vg = -1.2V and Mu = 33.

Using the specs in the way described you can derive averaged 100% for any tube characteristic at different points of measurement (Vf, Va, Vg). Now the tube sellers should in general provide these points of measurements they used in their listings however sometimes they do not for several reasons:

1) They outright lie (motherfrakers) because they know most people are looking for that phat juicy number of Ia = 15 mA (100%!!11!!oneneEleven!!), but without the point being specified it's meaningless! Why? Well let's take a look at that page in the specs as before the left chart is at Va=150V, now let's check our lovely Ia=15mA current characteristic, we work our way up the vertical line again and we see that Vg is between -3 and -3.1, but if we leave Vg unchanged (at -1.2V from before) and with so much juice going into the tube (150V) the current will go crazy high (more than 30mA maybe more for a healthy tube) . However... let's say that our tube still measures at 150V , -1.2V , Ia = 15mA this means this tube is far far far from the average 100% and that's where they get ya :)

2) Their tube tester is old and gimmicky, hard to use, hard to explain, hard to understand, you have some cards that say "ROTATE SELECTOR X to VALUE Y for TESTING TUBE Z", and "FOR TUBE Z 100% GM is 6500Mhmos". So this seems to be the case with your listing. If you take a look at here http://www.saegerradio.com/downloads/Consolidated Test Data For Hickok Model 533A-600A-605A Tube Testers V2.5.pdf you can see that for E88CC with the tester Hickok 533A you need to use the following settings:
Selectors: EV-7608-0 EV-2103-0
Bias: 27
Eng (English): 90
Press (Which button to use to test): P4
Gm scale = 6500 mhmos ( so you expect the 100%)

If we read the manual for that tester you can see that the selectors are using to configure what voltage is put on what pin of the tube.
There's not much I saw about Bias and English but we can assume that Bias 27 is equal to Vg=-2.7 V, and English Va= 90V on the plate (could be wrong but I can't find an explanation to these values and they resemble Grid Voltage and Plate voltage so much and the math kinda checks out :D ) . So at the time this tester was made we don't know what the charts were, perhaps at 90V/-1.2V the expected transconductance was 15 mA/V. But either way if we look at the values of Gm at that point we can see that when Vg = -2.7 V and Va=90V , 100% averaged Gm ~= 4.5 mA/V (4500 mhmos). So bottom line the tubes in question should be great as they measure above that. And even if 100% was 6.5mA/V the difference is negligible.

Cheers

Woah.

giphy-downsized.gif

But seriously @kolkoo, that is the most comprehensive explanation on tube testing I have yet seen! Thanks for taking the time to go through that. Going to be referencing this post often in the future, that's for sure.
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 4:21 PM Post #13,309 of 23,494
If any of you new guys in the USA are looking for some nice tubes, I``ll got some nice tubes at the end of my rotation not getting any playing time. Selling Siemens E88CC 1964 and 1965 set for $150 for both pairs + $7 shipping and paypal 3.5%. Testing numbers on the white box. No noise or microphonics on Lyr 2, MJ2 or Lite Dac 68.
The other bundle is for 2 pair of Mullard RTC E188CC, 1972 I think. One pair is microphonic on tap only other pair is fine, along with a 59/60 pair of Amperex ECC88 Bugle Boys. The BB has no noise or microphonics. Same price $150 for all 3 sets + 7 shipping and 3.5% paypal fee. PM if interested. All good testings according to sellers.
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 5:40 PM Post #13,310 of 23,494
Waiting patiently for the 5670 explosion on this thread. I'm eagerly waiting for the impressions. I wish that boat with them damn adapters , for those who are waiting, would hurry tf up already. LOL

I'm in the process of hoarding these tubes.
Can't stress it enough folks. Get them adapters and roll!

Just in today.
Tesla 6cc42 PW
Raytheon 5670
Bendix 2c51 (eclipse pioneer) on the way.
 
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Aug 18, 2017 at 6:20 PM Post #13,311 of 23,494
Waiting patiently for the 5670 explosion on this thread. I'm eagerly waiting for the impressions. I wish that boat with them damn adapters , for those who are waiting, would hurry tf up already. LOL

I'm in the process of hoarding these tubes.
Can't stress it enough folks. Get them adapters and roll!

Just in today.
Tesla 6cc42 PW
Raytheon 5670
Bendix 2c51 (eclipse pioneer) on the way.

I am on board, nabbed these GE 5670 5-star's yesterday :L3000: reading some forums other than Headfi, many people consider these to be on par or better than the WE 396a's. And that price! Maybe this tube rolling hobby won't kill my wallet after all. There were are couple other pairs for sale

Here are links to other sets if anyone is interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...902430?hash=item569e88079e:g:TcIAAOSwM8ZZese9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...705217?hash=item41cba8b401:g:iCcAAOSwdkpZesgS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-5-Star-B...878149?hash=item4d61896d45:g:dwkAAOSwjW9Zlyl7
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 6:33 PM Post #13,312 of 23,494
The GE 5 star is a phenomenal tube. So far , everything I have is pretty much equal. It's just preference of flavor. I definitely prefer these over any 6922 tube, and I've rolled some pretty decent tubes.

Oh. And yes. The prices are fantastic!
I am on board, nabbed these GE 5670 5-star's yesterday :L3000: reading some forums other than Headfi, many people consider these to be on par or better than the WE 396a's. And that price! Maybe this tube rolling hobby won't kill my wallet after all. There were are couple other pairs for sale

Here are links to other sets if anyone is interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...902430?hash=item569e88079e:g:TcIAAOSwM8ZZese9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...705217?hash=item41cba8b401:g:iCcAAOSwdkpZesgS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-5-Star-B...878149?hash=item4d61896d45:g:dwkAAOSwjW9Zlyl7
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 6:34 PM Post #13,313 of 23,494
Did you order the adapters?
I am on board, nabbed these GE 5670 5-star's yesterday :L3000: reading some forums other than Headfi, many people consider these to be on par or better than the WE 396a's. And that price! Maybe this tube rolling hobby won't kill my wallet after all. There were are couple other pairs for sale

Here are links to other sets if anyone is interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...902430?hash=item569e88079e:g:TcIAAOSwM8ZZese9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5670-2c...705217?hash=item41cba8b401:g:iCcAAOSwdkpZesgS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-5-Star-B...878149?hash=item4d61896d45:g:dwkAAOSwjW9Zlyl7
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 6:40 PM Post #13,314 of 23,494
Did you order the adapters?

Yep, coming from Hong Kong. Gonna be a bit, but in my experience, shipping from Hong Kong is faster than ePacket deliveries from other cities in China. The wait begins!
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 7:54 PM Post #13,316 of 23,494
I like the triple mica GE 5 star tubes with the D getter....I have not tried the GE 5 star with the O getter. I've read the triple mica version is the best......
 
Aug 18, 2017 at 8:35 PM Post #13,318 of 23,494
Now that you've had time with quite a few of them Sammy, can you rank them and give a mini-review of each...and Winders as well. I have the JK WE396a's, GE 5 Star 3 mica D Getters, Tung Sol D Getters...and just ordered a pair of 1951 Bendix Square Getters. I would guess I'll prefer the Western Electrics from what I've read. I tend toward a heavier, smoother timbre (the WE's) vs the more detailed but brighter (Bendix) with the other two (GE 5 Star amd Tung Sol) supposedly somewhere in between.
EDIT: Still no adapters...but did just order a spare pair of those too. I blame Sammy for all of this. I was more than happy just a few weeks ago before he went insane.
 
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Aug 18, 2017 at 9:14 PM Post #13,319 of 23,494
I like the triple mica GE 5 star tubes with the D getter....I have not tried the GE 5 star with the O getter. I've read the triple mica version is the best......

Since they were so cheap, I ordered both the O getter and three mica D getter. We'll see which one prevails
 
Aug 19, 2017 at 2:25 AM Post #13,320 of 23,494
Yeah, me too Billy . 3 pairs and adapters. I was looking at the rayeon windmill getters too. But I got nice deals on the others $20 for hung sol, 40 for ge with d getters, 78 for wes. So 3 pairs for the price of e188ccs
 

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